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Old July 5, 2011, 16:31   #11
Estie
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So its a "boring dive-fest" now. Back to the grind game ?
Things like luring away a beholder and go back to the pit work only when you are in "clear level" depths. In a dive situation, chances are something wakes up that forces you off the level.

I am not sure this is the right direction. After all, there is ironman mode which offers alot of opportunities for tactical play, but judging from the numbers of posts on oook, it hardly gets played. My impression is that people enjoy the "dive-fest".
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Old July 5, 2011, 16:55   #12
fizzix
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Estie View Post
So its a "boring dive-fest" now. Back to the grind game ?
Things like luring away a beholder and go back to the pit work only when you are in "clear level" depths. In a dive situation, chances are something wakes up that forces you off the level.

I am not sure this is the right direction. After all, there is ironman mode which offers alot of opportunities for tactical play, but judging from the numbers of posts on oook, it hardly gets played. My impression is that people enjoy the "dive-fest".
Diving is fun only when there is significant danger. The problem I was referring to seems to occur very often where I pick up some great gear and then start diving to the bottom, and on the way, I improve faster than the monsters around me. The kickoff for this exponential growth is TO because that allows me to access areas of the dungeon that I previously couldn't.

I think we need an intermediate ironman where you get something like a bag of holding. I like the limited dungeon of ironman but I like the limited inventory less. I'd like ironman more if I could store endgame stuff. This is another topic though, and I think I might make my limited ironman game.
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Old July 5, 2011, 17:10   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fizzix View Post
Diving is fun only when there is significant danger. The problem I was referring to seems to occur very often where I pick up some great gear and then start diving to the bottom, and on the way, I improve faster than the monsters around me. The kickoff for this exponential growth is TO because that allows me to access areas of the dungeon that I previously couldn't.

I think we need an intermediate ironman where you get something like a bag of holding. I like the limited dungeon of ironman but I like the limited inventory less. I'd like ironman more if I could store endgame stuff. This is another topic though, and I think I might make my limited ironman game.
Have you played FayAngband? The author does basically what you describe, as the dungeon depth increases each time you leave/visit a level, but you still have access to the town. The only levels you can re-visit are 99 until you kill Sauron and 100 until you kill Morgoth.
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Old July 5, 2011, 17:58   #14
ChodTheWacko
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how about leave TO the way it is, but make it not work in vaults?
That seems to solve the issue quite nicely.

- Frank
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Old July 5, 2011, 18:26   #15
fizzix
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Originally Posted by ChodTheWacko View Post
how about leave TO the way it is, but make it not work in vaults?
That seems to solve the issue quite nicely.

- Frank
I don't think it solves the problem at all. All it requires is that you take the extra time to lure the monsters from the vaults, which you usually do anyway to fight them individually. It also doesn't help the situation at all when there's a monster "guarding" an object in the dungeon.
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Old July 5, 2011, 19:33   #16
Estie
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fizzix View Post
Diving is fun only when there is significant danger. The problem I was referring to seems to occur very often where I pick up some great gear and then start diving to the bottom, and on the way, I improve faster than the monsters around me. The kickoff for this exponential growth is TO because that allows me to access areas of the dungeon that I previously couldn't.

I think we need an intermediate ironman where you get something like a bag of holding. I like the limited dungeon of ironman but I like the limited inventory less. I'd like ironman more if I could store endgame stuff. This is another topic though, and I think I might make my limited ironman game.
Interesting that you bring that up, I had suggested the same not long ago in this thread:

http://angband.oook.cz/forum/showthr...ironman&page=3

Nevertheless, I feel like TO is what makes diving profitable; weaken it and you reward the slow level-clearing play. I am not saying that this is bad idea, but given that we have ironman already, I dont see the need to remove the "powerful TO" birth-option.
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Old July 5, 2011, 19:37   #17
ChodTheWacko
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Originally Posted by fizzix View Post
I don't think it solves the problem at all. All it requires is that you take the extra time to lure the monsters from the vaults, which you usually do anyway to fight them individually. It also doesn't help the situation at all when there's a monster "guarding" an object in the dungeon.
I think there are different aspects of TO abuse, and I think some of them need to be approached quite differently. The form of TO abuse I'd most like to resolve is the 'go into a vault, zap out the asleep OOD monsters, and loot'. That's just way too easy.

TO Rods definitely need to be buried deeper - finding a rod or two of TO is a complete game changer. I'm highly unlikely to waste a TO wand charge for a non-vault floor object - you get much more bang/buck using it on a vault or to save your life.

I don't recall if this happened or not, but wasn't there talk of making TO a bolt, not a beam?
That's also quite signifigant as you are going to burn through charges signifigantly quicker.
I don't find -that- many TO wands, even including Black market purchases.

- Frank

Last edited by ChodTheWacko; July 5, 2011 at 19:43.
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Old July 5, 2011, 19:55   #18
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TO is a bolt in the dev versions, and that works well.

If you want players to be able to explore dungeons that are filled with monsters they are not capable of fighting, then they need to have some ways to avoid those monsters. TO is, currently, one of a tiny handful of such ways -- other mechanisms include destruction, banishment, trying to wall the monster off with earthquakes, and simply finding the closest staircase to try the level again. Of those options, staircases are rather lame, earthquake is only really an option for holy casters and it doesn't work very well, and destruction/banishment are both unavailable until the problem they'd solve is largely moot.

Well. There's also stealth, but most of the monsters you'd want to teleport away (including the cited beholders) are highly alert to begin with.

Anyway, since I'm all for players getting in over their heads and having to play very carefully to survive (a.k.a. a "diving strategy"), I don't want to see TO go away until something better comes in to take its place. Where "better" doesn't necessarily mean "more powerful" but rather "more interesting".

As for vault abuse, I'd support blocking TO for monsters on icky tiles. I don't think anything more is needed. If you're going to rely solely on TO to deal with a vault, you're already taking a huge chance, since you're effectively populating the entire rest of the dungeon with monsters you can't handle. If you need to leave the vault area for any reason, you're in serious trouble. If you like, you could give TO a more variable range so monsters wouldn't necessarily be teleported across the entire dungeon. A minimum of 20 tiles, maybe?
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Old July 5, 2011, 20:07   #19
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What are 'icky' tiles? I've also seen 'icky' corners mentioned, something else?
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Old July 5, 2011, 20:40   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Derakon View Post
TO is a bolt in the dev versions, and that works well.

If you want players to be able to explore dungeons that are filled with monsters they are not capable of fighting, then they need to have some ways to avoid those monsters. TO is, currently, one of a tiny handful of such ways -- other mechanisms include destruction, banishment, trying to wall the monster off with earthquakes, and simply finding the closest staircase to try the level again. Of those options, staircases are rather lame, earthquake is only really an option for holy casters and it doesn't work very well, and destruction/banishment are both unavailable until the problem they'd solve is largely moot.
I think this is a good analysis, but I can generalize it. There are 2 types of options.

Player leaves: (run away, teleport, stairs, teleport level, deep descent)
Monster leaves: (teleport other, banishment, mass banishment, banish evil, destruction)

Earthquake doesn't really fit in either approach, but I would much like to see tactical use of earthquake be more appealing. Destruction is also a little bit of an oddball here, because it requires that the player to first lure the monster away from an area in order not to destroy the desired items.

Quote:
Anyway, since I'm all for players getting in over their heads and having to play very carefully to survive (a.k.a. a "diving strategy"), I don't want to see TO go away until something better comes in to take its place. Where "better" doesn't necessarily mean "more powerful" but rather "more interesting".
I think where I'm going is that I want the Player Leaves options to be the default until somewhere around dlevel 50. Then there can be a transition to the Monster Leaves options.

Quote:
As for vault abuse, I'd support blocking TO for monsters on icky tiles. I don't think anything more is needed. If you're going to rely solely on TO to deal with a vault, you're already taking a huge chance, since you're effectively populating the entire rest of the dungeon with monsters you can't handle. If you need to leave the vault area for any reason, you're in serious trouble. If you like, you could give TO a more variable range so monsters wouldn't necessarily be teleported across the entire dungeon. A minimum of 20 tiles, maybe?
These changes don't satisfy me, but they're not too difficult to implement, so I'm not opposed to trying them out. (If you need to leave the vault you ?phase not ?teleport since ?phase automatically brings you outside the vault.

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What are 'icky' tiles? I've also seen 'icky' corners mentioned, something else?
"Icky tiles" is a hidden tile designation. Right now it applies to all vault tiles. Players cannot teleport onto icky tiles. I have no idea what icky corners are.
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