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Old August 8, 2011, 17:31   #11
lurm
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Hello,

That's a very nice idea. I don't no about coding side of things so don't know how hard it would be to implement.

I have always liked level feelings a lot, don't know what other players think about those. In O I find level feeling to be bit boring though and would love to see iimprovements.

As I said, I don't know anything about coding, so don't know if it would be possible to get feelings in a level about spawned monsters but I think it would be nice to get somekind of message/feeling if for example very out of depth monster spawns on the level player is on.

Maybe something like this is in some other variant?

lurm.
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Old August 8, 2011, 20:05   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChodTheWacko View Post
Here's an interesting idea, which would make angband more newbie friendly:

How about upgrading the 'monster level feeling' to the most dangerous i.e. 'You sense imminent death' if there is something that can instakill you?

It'll at least give some warning to people that they are missing resistance holes. (although it can't be relied on since it won't take into account spawned monsters). It should avoid some of the instadeaths.

- Frank
Not sure if I like this idea or not, but it makes me realise that we have no agreed definition of instakill, and we would need one if we were to implement anything which depends on it. So, do you mean any or all of

1a. Can kill you in a single breath from range at your current hp
1b. Can kill you in a single breath from range at your max hp
2a. Can kill you in a single round of melee at current hp
2b. Can kill you in a single round of melee at max hp
3. Can paralyse you (and then kill you at leisure)

Oh, and do you care whether the critter is awake or asleep?
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Old August 8, 2011, 20:10   #13
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And of course you have the problem of e.g. the gravity hound, where a pack can kill you in one round but a single hound, alone, is a relatively negligible threat.

IMO the player should generally be operating under the assumption that he can be killed at any time. Thus you should always get the maximally-threatening level feeling.
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Old August 8, 2011, 20:28   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Magnate View Post
Not sure if I like this idea or not, but it makes me realise that we have no agreed definition of instakill, and we would need one if we were to implement anything which depends on it. So, do you mean any or all of

1a. Can kill you in a single breath from range at your current hp
1b. Can kill you in a single breath from range at your max hp
2a. Can kill you in a single round of melee at current hp
2b. Can kill you in a single round of melee at max hp
3. Can paralyse you (and then kill you at leisure)

Oh, and do you care whether the critter is awake or asleep?
I think my personal definition would be a monster with any kind of attack that can one-shot you while you're at max HP. Basing it off current HP seems pretty silly - you could make a desperate escape from the previous level with 5 HP left and get a sense of imminent death from the nearest snaga - and paralysis isn't a guaranteed death (nor an instant one).

And I'm not sure I like this idea either, but I'd be kind of fascinated to see it implemented just to find out how often the message pops up. (I do love the new "omens of death haunt this place" level feeling...)
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Old August 8, 2011, 23:09   #15
ChodTheWacko
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Magnate View Post
Not sure if I like this idea or not, but it makes me realise that we have no agreed definition of instakill, and we would need one if we were to implement anything which depends on it. So, do you mean any or all of

1a. Can kill you in a single breath from range at your current hp
1b. Can kill you in a single breath from range at your max hp
2a. Can kill you in a single round of melee at current hp
2b. Can kill you in a single round of melee at max hp
3. Can paralyse you (and then kill you at leisure)

Oh, and do you care whether the critter is awake or asleep?
It's basically the sequence of:
1) you, at full health, do one action (hit one key on your keyboard)
2) You stare at your gravestone.

So by this definition, that would be 1b, 2b, and 3.
However, I have never ever seen 2b happen in all my years of playing.
I've gotten hammered in that first round and been forced to bail out, but I've always been alive (although perhaps needing to drink a potion of healing).
1a and 2a are not instadeaths because you are already partially dead from the last monster.


IMHO, The most unfair instakills are the ones where your action was to take one step through an empty room, and something breathed on you from offscreen.
Second worst is probably if you see a monster you haven't seen before, you shoot it with your bow, and it wakes up and breaths on you.

I think Level feelings don't change after the start of the level? All monsters are asleep at the start of the level (I think). However I would like the following sequence to be insta-death proof:

1) Go into a room with a sleeping monster
2) Zap the monster with a rod of probing.

Making that instadeath proof probably means:
1) rods of probing never wake up monsters
2) You get a message telling you if a monster wakes up
3) Monsters aren't allowed to instakill you on the turn they wake up, if they wake up due to noise (versus you attacking them).

So worst case scenario in that case would be:
1) You walk into LOS of a monster
2) Monster wakes up.
3) You teleport level.

I actually quite like the idea of a message of "Death has arrived on the level" warning you that something has spawned that can instakill you. It'll give you a chance to avoid those cheap shot offscreen instakills, and it really doesn't make the game any easier.

- Frank
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Old August 9, 2011, 01:44   #16
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I fear that, if moving at a moderate pace the insta-death message would be all too common, encouraging excessively slow descent.
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Old August 9, 2011, 03:39   #17
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Originally Posted by buzzkill View Post
I fear that, if moving at a moderate pace the insta-death message would be all too common, encouraging excessively slow descent.
Maybe we are on the wrong track with level feelings. Maybe they should be designed to offer no useful information and only to goad and infuriate you.

Thus, if you were diving and were having trouble finding a source of speed, the level message might be "You feel slow!". Or if you had poor equipment, "You are badly dressed! A monster laughs at you!". Or if you had recently survived a powerful breath attack, "You should have been dead long ago! You must have got lucky!"

If you were playing in a small window: "You loser! Get a better computer!". There could also be operating-system-specific insults.

If your character had no unusual features, or if you failed a Perception check, then the message would simply read "You suck."

A.
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Old August 9, 2011, 05:37   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Antoine View Post
Maybe we are on the wrong track with level feelings. Maybe they should be designed to offer no useful information and only to goad and infuriate you.

Thus, if you were diving and were having trouble finding a source of speed, the level message might be "You feel slow!". Or if you had poor equipment, "You are badly dressed! A monster laughs at you!". Or if you had recently survived a powerful breath attack, "You should have been dead long ago! You must have got lucky!"

If you were playing in a small window: "You loser! Get a better computer!". There could also be operating-system-specific insults.

If your character had no unusual features, or if you failed a Perception check, then the message would simply read "You suck."

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Old August 9, 2011, 06:36   #19
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I fear that, if moving at a moderate pace the insta-death message would be all too common, encouraging excessively slow descent.
That's a good point - and If you intentionally skip a resistance, because you know which monsters to look out for/avoid, then the danger level would probably always be 'imminent death'. That's not real useful either.

When I last won, I just basically assumed that every single unique could kill me unless I had 600+ hit points, due to some resistance hole. By the time I really started killing uniques I was really overpowered for many of them. It's a little silly I waited that long, but I didn't want to risk instadeath by whatever I didn't have covered at the time. It was safe, and allowed me to win the game. But I wish there was some sort of compromise.

I know we won't ever have a 'newbie mode', but if we did, then I would suggest that monsters that could instakill you could be colored red in the monster list.

It would be interesting to have a colored * before each monster in the monster list, colored as following:
red - has a known attack which can instakill you
white - not all attacks know, buyer beware.
green - has no attacks that can instakill you

That could also help avoid those 'oops, I forgot to re-wear my shield of resist fire' deaths. (and I wouldn't mind not having to constantly recheck my gear if I'm doing frequent gear swapping)

- Frank
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Old August 9, 2011, 12:41   #20
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Well done, Antoine - you made me use the reputation button for the first time ever.

I look forward to seeing this feature in your variants.
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