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Old July 11, 2011, 22:15   #1
fizzix
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Deep monsters

The list of deep monsters in Vanilla is pretty thin.

Code:
master mystic           50
nether hound            51
time hound              51
plasma hound            51
chaos vortex            53
storm of unmagic        53
demilich                54
elder vampire           54
archon                  55
dracolich               55
dracolisk               55
barbazu                 55
lesser titan            56
grand master mystic     57
hand druj               58
eye druj                58
ethereal hound          59
skull druj              59
aether vortex           60
nightwing               61
bile demon              61
dreadlord               62
great storm wyrm        63
great ice wyrm          63
great swamp wyrm        63
chaos hound             64
archlich                64
osyluth                 65
greater titan           66
great hell wyrm         67
beholder hive-mother    67
great bile wyrm         67
great wyrm of thunder   67
jabberwock              68
bone golem              68
nightcrawler            69
gelugon                 69
greater demonic q       71
greater draconic q      71
greater rotting q       71
horned reaper           72
nightwalker             73
black reaver            74
aether hound            74
great wyrm of chaos     75
great wyrm of law       75
bronze golem            75
master quylthulg        76
pit fiend               77
great wyrm of balance   79
great wyrm of mc        79
greater balrog          79
There are no non-unique monsters deeper than 79.

1: Do we need more non-unique deep monsters? Do they add to the game?

2: If so, what can we make? We have some free letters, namely N,F,Y. (F and Y can be freed easily) to bring in new races. I've been poking around at other variants for ideas, but like V, most of the deep monsters are uniques only.
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Old July 11, 2011, 22:19   #2
Derakon
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More enemy types is always good, so long as they're balanced.
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Old July 11, 2011, 23:15   #3
jens
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Of course we need more deep monsters! It's been on my todo list for a while now :-) I've only been thinking in terms of the current races though... New ones would be good... Hmm, about freeing letters, it's been mentioned before, but while doing this I'd add changing Angels to Ainur. Quite simmilar beings (angels were one of the inspirations for Ainur according to wikipedia), and above all Ainur belong to the Tolkien universe, while Angels do not...
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Old July 11, 2011, 23:21   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fizzix View Post
The list of deep monsters in Vanilla is pretty thin.

2: If so, what can we make? We have some free letters, namely N,F,Y. (F and Y can be freed easily) to bring in new races. I've been poking around at other variants for ideas, but like V, most of the deep monsters are uniques only.
One obvious option occurs to me.

N: Nameless things

They could be pretty interesting, with all the digging.

The obvious thing though, is to rescale the depths at which other monsters are found, and at the same time to make them a bit tougher. This way you help avoid making the toughest things in the game generic while having things like the Ringwraiths be mid-game entities.
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Old July 11, 2011, 23:36   #5
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I'm not sure that more deep monsters adds a whole lot, as the later monsters already tend to have a pretty wide variety of abilities. Too many abilities can sometimes make monsters weak - Vecna, for example, can be more difficult than Sauron since the former has significantly fewer abilities and is more likely to summon reavers or mana storm. GWoC and GWoMC breath pretty much everything except nether/gravity/time. Will a hypothetical demon that can breath shards AND light/dark really be that distinguishable from a gelugon? Also, anything deeper than DL63 is already capable of 1-2 shotting the player, so increased damage outputs aren't really possible and similar monsters with more hitpoints aren't really that different than the current uniques.

That being said, I generally agree with Derakon.
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Old July 11, 2011, 23:56   #6
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Since diversity weakens monsters, the solution is to have non-diverse monsters that do one or two things, but do them well.

For example, you could have a mobile Quylthulg, say an Ancient Necromancer, who runs around spamming greater undead at you. Or a Stone Termite -- eats walls and breeds explosively (ZAngband has greater wall monsters, which do that and look identical to granite walls...). Or an Osmium Golem who hits like a brick, casts teleport-to, and breathes gravity...though that's a bit of the wrong flavor.
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Old July 12, 2011, 00:18   #7
Nomad
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bulian View Post
I'm not sure that more deep monsters adds a whole lot, as the later monsters already tend to have a pretty wide variety of abilities. Too many abilities can sometimes make monsters weak - Vecna, for example, can be more difficult than Sauron since the former has significantly fewer abilities and is more likely to summon reavers or mana storm. GWoC and GWoMC breath pretty much everything except nether/gravity/time. Will a hypothetical demon that can breath shards AND light/dark really be that distinguishable from a gelugon? Also, anything deeper than DL63 is already capable of 1-2 shotting the player, so increased damage outputs aren't really possible and similar monsters with more hitpoints aren't really that different than the current uniques.
Yeah, I pretty much agree with this. I think the place to add new monsters is probably the middle levels, so we can shunt the existing deep monsters further down, and make it more attractive to stick around dlevel 60 instead of diving straight on to 90.

I think there's room in the midgame for more 'specialised' monsters - things that can hit you quite nastily, but only with one or two types of attacks, so that players with the right resistances can risk taking them on. I think breaths like light, sound and shards are pretty underused in the middle levels. Or just have more monsters with interesting combinations of attacks - ice and chaos, poison and nexus, dark and sound, etc.
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Old July 12, 2011, 00:27   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nomad View Post
Yeah, I pretty much agree with this. I think the place to add new monsters is probably the middle levels, so we can shunt the existing deep monsters further down, and make it more attractive to stick around dlevel 60 instead of diving straight on to 90.

I think there's room in the midgame for more 'specialised' monsters - things that can hit you quite nastily, but only with one or two types of attacks, so that players with the right resistances can risk taking them on. I think breaths like light, sound and shards are pretty underused in the middle levels. Or just have more monsters with interesting combinations of attacks - ice and chaos, poison and nexus, dark and sound, etc.
I think this is fairly accurate. However, it's hard to rationalize this along with a 'game needs to be harder' mindset.
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Old July 12, 2011, 00:43   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Derakon View Post
Since diversity weakens monsters, the solution is to have non-diverse monsters that do one or two things, but do them well.

For example, you could have a mobile Quylthulg, say an Ancient Necromancer, who runs around spamming greater undead at you. Or a Stone Termite -- eats walls and breeds explosively (ZAngband has greater wall monsters, which do that and look identical to granite walls...). Or an Osmium Golem who hits like a brick, casts teleport-to, and breathes gravity...though that's a bit of the wrong flavor.
+1

I'd also like to see monsters with ridiculously high AC but very few hitpoints, so that you need to take them out with spells/devices.
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Old July 12, 2011, 01:17   #10
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Originally Posted by fizzix View Post
I think this is fairly accurate. However, it's hard to rationalize this along with a 'game needs to be harder' mindset.
Well, maybe not. I actually feel it adds more from a difficulty standpoint to create mid-level monsters that the player can beat with a bit of a struggle than it does to add yet more things so horribly nasty that they're just going to run away from them. We've already got plenty of Horribly Nasty Things that players take one look at and decide to skip fighting; we need more things that they'll lose half their HP tackling because it looked like a fight worth taking on.
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