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Old June 23, 2017, 19:50   #11
Sky
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you do this every time.

step 1: ignore the complaints of novice players.

step 2: complain that new people do not pick up angband.

ermagherd V is too easy lets nerf everything. 40 to 60 hp DOES matter, when you are meleeing cutpurses for XP. If you are not meleeing cutpurses, then you have lost touch with what it is like to play angband - not the first time this happens in a game.
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Old June 23, 2017, 20:03   #12
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If you want to melee cutpurses, I suggest you play a warrior, who are designed for melee, or a rogue, who are apparently superior, or a ranger, who can at least conserve ammo that way, or a paladin or a priest, who have no other options. And even on most of those I'd go with ranged attacks. If I have lost sight of angband by doing this, clearly I never played the game, given how I never did that, even starting out.

I would also not melee cutpurses for XP on any character, but I can see how a new player would. I suggest making cash theft permanent again to discourage this behavior.
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Old June 23, 2017, 21:46   #13
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when you are meleeing cutpurses for XP
Not only should you not be meleeing cutpurses for XP, you should not be meleeing *anything* for any reason. You shouldn't have a weapon wielded unless it supplies and important benefit; to me that means int, speed, stealth, ESP, SI, or regeneration (I will not wield a weapon for FA; I don't think it's important enough). When playing mages, I squelch all good weapons right away. I squelch all Slay and branded weapons as I find them. I check all *Slay*, Gondolin, and artifact weapons for the abilities on the above list and choose a stat stick among them (defender, HA and Westernesse, and even Gondolin are usually garbage by the time I find one) based on (approximately):

big speed > ESP > big int > medium speed > medium int > big stealth > small speed > SI > regen > small int > small stealth.

If I've got a set of otherwise equal choices, I choose the lightest one, regardless of dice or enchantments.

Only very light armors are used until strength is up, with again int, speed, stealth, and abilities being priority. It is common for me to have a ~cl28 mage with herioc+ stealth, +8 speed (from two rings of escaping), no Rbase, and 50% more SP than HP on DL 98.

About a year ago I attempted a level-clearing ironman mage, where level clearing means not only fully exploring every level, but killing everything. To be clear, I think that winning such a game would require far more luck than skill. I don't recall exactly how far I got, but I know that I killed Kavlax with magic missiles at roughly his native death, and it was a Great Wyrm in a vault that took me out. Never did I rely on melee.

If you want to melee with a mage, play a half-troll. Thanks to their high strength and big hit dice, they are surprisingly among the better mage races, and due to their very low starting int and high strength and con, they play very differently in the early and mid games.
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Old June 24, 2017, 00:22   #14
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Paradoxically, a half-troll mage doesn't really have to do the whole melee thing though, since Regen means they don't run out of spell points, so there's pretty much never a good reason to melee.
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Old June 24, 2017, 00:29   #15
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My take-home message from this thread is that it's good to hear multiple points of view, and that no-one should assume their play style is universal.
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Old June 24, 2017, 01:07   #16
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My take-home message from this thread is that it's good to hear multiple points of view, and that no-one should assume their play style is universal.
Yep. But some things ought to be universal. I'm more of a fighty player than a powerdiver, but even I don't melee cutpurses as a mage. That's what lightning bolt is for. If you are out of mana, retreat until that's no longer the case and then zap. Maybe use melee to finish them off once they're nearly dead, but otherwise a mage shouldn't be meleeing stuff unless it's ridiculously weak (at level 30, feel free to melee all the cutpurses you want ).

I wouldn't go to the extreme of "don't wield anything but stat sticks," though. A whip or dagger isn't heavy enough for the weight to matter, and it'll give you something better than fists for desperation or coup de grace scenarios. My mage weapon of choice until I find a really good stat stick is a 'Thanc--don't be tempted to melee with it, just think of it as an extra rod of foo bolt that doesn't take up an inventory slot.
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Old June 24, 2017, 04:24   #17
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My take-home message from this thread is that it's good to hear multiple points of view, and that no-one should assume their play style is universal.
My take-home was that vanilla needs a hidden liferating HP modifier like *hengband that you only discover at CL30 or so.
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Old June 24, 2017, 05:04   #18
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do you even remember what level is lightning bolt?
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Old June 24, 2017, 05:38   #19
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My take-home was that vanilla needs a hidden liferating HP modifier like *hengband that you only discover at CL30 or so.
Unless they've changed it, the life rating in those games is just a statistical measurement of how close to the average your hit die rolls are. Vanilla, like PSCHZA (let's face it, that's at most as silly a name as PosCHengband ), rolls all your hit dice in advance and guarantees that at the end of the game you won't be more than, IIRC, 20-25% away from the average. Rerolling your life rating is just rerolling those hit dice.

So, good news! It's already there, the game just never tells it to you.

Sky, lightning bolt is a level-5 spell for mages, and thus eminently suitable for use against Cutpurses. So I'm afraid I don't understand what you were trying to say.
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Old June 24, 2017, 07:25   #20
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I'll sometimes melee trash on a mage. The big clincher is str rather than hps. You need to be wearing armour, wielding a heavy weapon & carrying enough consumables to constantly phase & heal. It's generally slow & grindy, tends to only make sense on races where your stealth makes avoiding things as much of a pain as killing them.

Last edited by wobbly; June 24, 2017 at 07:37.
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