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Old June 24, 2017, 21:00   #31
Estie
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kandrc View Post
I always load up on oil with a mage. As many as I can carry without being burdened. Yeah, they miss a lot, but the oil is cheap. As I pick stuff up, if I haven't used it yet, I drop some oil so that I remain unburdened. By the time I'm CL 7 or so, it's no longer useful.

Also, I don't know why this thread has had all the talk about lightening bolt. LB is too expensive, because it always beams. MM is almost always better. One you have enough SP, acid and fire bolt are better, too. The only time that LB is good is when you've got a line of light-resistant monsters in a corridor and your MM doesn't beam often yet.
I dont even learn lightning bolt on some mages. If opportunity arises I get it, sure, but more often than not thats not the case.
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Old June 24, 2017, 22:08   #32
Gwarl
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I really like hitting a whole bunch of monsters with one spell, so I appreciate lightning bolt (and dethanc)

Also I know this is a bit of a pile on already but:

If you can survive CL1 as a mage and reach CL2, then you're not any weaker and can just keep going to get CL3. Just takes a bit more patience than with other classes. You can just keep clearing 50' until you're ready to descend. That's how a lot of older versions and variants worked for everyone, but V has had decades of power creep now.
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Old June 25, 2017, 00:48   #33
Pete Mack
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I'll sometimes buy ?bless (along with oil) improve jk throwing accuracy. This will let you take out Bullroarer at CL3.
Mage starting gear:
MB1
?recall
2 torch
~ 10 !oil
A few !CLW
5+ ?Phase
Optional
1 ?bless/!hero
MB2
Food
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Old June 25, 2017, 01:05   #34
the Invisible Stalker
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Am I missing something, or does this complaint boil down to "playing mages as if they were warriors only works if you are not unlucky"? That seems like an odd thing to be annoyed about.
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Old June 25, 2017, 01:50   #35
Pete Mack
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It's more "playing mages as if you are a rogue," but yes. Rogues. From the help pages
Quote:
A Rogue is a character that prefers to live by his cunning, but is
**capable of fighting his way out of a tight spot.
vs.
Quote:
A Mage must live by his wits. He cannot hope to simply hack his way
**through the dungeon, and so must therefore use his magic to defeat,
**deceive, confuse, and escape
The easiest way to "deceive and escape" is by avoiding waking up dangerous monsters in the first place. Mage is so desperately vulnerable to death by exhuastion.
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Old June 25, 2017, 04:00   #36
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Sky--
Really, just don't expect to melee except incidentally to clear weak monsters from your patv until you get max blows with an endgame weapon. The game is not designed to permjt "melee for EXP" before that point. If you are finding that devices/archery/spellcasting is getting tedious, make a keymap for the most common combinations. For example
Keymap m2g5$ will zap a cold bolt at your current target, or prompt for a target if none is currently specified. I usually have at least 4 of these set up, 1 for devices, two for spells, and one for archery.

But do try to worry less about HP and CL, and play to your character's strengths. (Melee is not one of them.)
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Old June 28, 2017, 21:56   #37
Sky
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right now i'm beating myself up for having ever typed MAGE in this thread.

rogues have the same issue. WARRIORS have the same issue. if your only game is bonking mobs on the head and you roll three 1s in a row your character is not worth spending any more time on.

but this argument isn't worth pursuing anymore because everyone here has the same attitude that i see in quake, cs, and every other game where people have played for 20-odd years "i have the game down to a science therefore anyone who doesn't have years to spend on it is a noob and an idiot".

follows list of specifics which is basically the only way to survive with a mage.

hey, but what if someone buys, i don't know, a helm, a shield, and some boots? you know, things which are sold in town and a reasonable player at their first, or tenth, attempt would consider as good starting gear?

no, they need to bleed until they learn to adapt to a game so unforgiving, it's often quoted in name as the very definition of "a hard game".

"angband has had a power creep up"
if we don't consider rings and boots of speed +23, ring of acid branding glaive of pain, randarts with +2 blows, extra blow warrior, destruction giving your free artifacts, and another god knows how many exploits which made the game supereasy, once you knew how.

i proposed a fix which does not impact endgame, barely impacts anything after CL10, and which would make the game ever so slightly easier for a very limited number of people who otherwise would be stuck in a bad situation, but with the fix, those few would be otherwise very much helped.

don't want it? fine, dont have it. but please don't quote me "i have 6.5hp statistically therefore your 1hp per level is totally fine" because if there is one thing i like less than statistics, is bad interpretation of statistics.

"i have no food to eat!" "well it doesn't matter because i had two lunches, so statistically we're cool".


for those of you who don't get my argument, here is a real-life example.

i just got off of Blacklight Retribution. it's my game; i'm in sync with it. i win 80% of every match i'm in, which includes matches joined halfway. i easily do 30-5 while everyone else maybe manages 18-12.

i barely keep awake when playing. only if a high skill player comes in the match, i actually apply myself. however, i understand that what is too easy for me, is not too easy for the other people in the lobby, who struggle with basic gameplay, do not have the skills that i have developed, and that lack the experience to apply them. Therefore, i do not want the game to be made harder for me to enjoy, but rather easier for them. When you are playing bookless priest or store bough shovel, maybe you need to call it a day, but definitely you no longer qualify to give advice on how the game can appeal to new players.

Last edited by Sky; June 28, 2017 at 22:01.
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Old June 28, 2017, 22:27   #38
Nick
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Thank you, that was very entertaining.

One of the things being examined for 4.2 is the player - classes, races and other properties. While I'm probably not thinking of implementing your suggestion, don't think you haven't had any impact - I'm now less inclined to make the early game harder

Angband attracts a certain type of masochist. We feel your pain, but in some way it also validates our choice of pastime. It is a pretty brutal game, and on the whole we want to keep it that way - in the long run, it makes it more satisfying to finally win. Keep trying, keep telling us what you think - it's really important that we don't only hear from experienced players - and thanks again for the rant
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Old June 29, 2017, 01:06   #39
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TC might also want to try Sil -- it removes basically all of the randomness from progression, and pushes it into the combat mechanics instead
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Old June 29, 2017, 02:01   #40
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Sil is a genuinely brutal game. Angband only assures the possibility of bad luck. Sil guarantees it.

Sky--I really do understand your point: If you spend a lot of time at low CL, a few extra points can make a big difference. But it's a discussion we've had dozens of times here: focusing on this issue tends to teach the wrong lessons. I was an absolutely hopeless player until Eddie Grove posted Tales of the Bold on rgra. You don't need to play optimally. But clearing levels, or just staying shallow for too long, makes it much, much harder to learn how to deal with levels below 3000'.
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