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Old February 4, 2019, 22:26   #11
luneya
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Weapon weights have never been a measure of real-world weight, but rather of how awkward an object is to carry. The easiest fix is to just remove the labels "weight" and "pounds" and instead report that "carrying this object takes n units of encumbrance."

Small weapons like daggers have the least encumbrance because of their compact design. A dagger can be stowed almost anywhere amongst a person's gear, and can be held in hand almost indefinitely without any special effort. By contrast, a sword or battle-axe can really only be secured to a belt-scabbard or a baldric worn on the back, and it's harder to carry one in hand for an extended period than the difference in weight would suggest, because these weapons are not only longer than daggers, but have more of the weight distributed to the end away from the hilt. The really big weapons like polearms are actually somewhat easier to carry in hand over time, as you can just treat them as walking sticks, with the weight of the weapon resting against the ground, but it's nearly impossible to wear them across the body rather than carrying them.

It also makes good physical sense that this notion of encumbrance would affect attack speed and damage. In the real world, you can deliver multiple stabs with a dagger about as quickly as you could land multiple punches. With a larger weapon, the leverage effects cause each strike to hit with more force, but also to require more recovery time between strikes. So in a sense, the current Angband model is accurate.

The problems are that the combat model overvalues the speed benefits of a smaller weapon as compared to the force benefits of a larger weapon, and that all weapons have a fixed minimum striking speed. In the real world, an unathletic bookworm like the average mage would probably be slow with a dagger--perhaps as slow as a fighter would be with a maul--but would be even slower than that with a polearm. The game can't capture this, as no character ever drops below 1 blow per round.
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Old February 5, 2019, 04:48   #12
tangar
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Realism in Angband

In general, game balance is more important than realism. Of course it's great to make stuff to make sense.. But if there is a choice between following precise realworld medieval experience and making game less balanced - hell to realism. This is magic world which has it's own magic physical laws

At the same time it shouldn't be too non-realistic. We have to find compromise between realism and game balance.. I mean - we shouldn't be too tedious in trying to match precise values to real-life.

Current weight is ok in terms of lore/realism to me. Imho the problem is to rebalance different weapon in early/mid/end game; so heavy weapons would be more useful for early-mid game. How come that dagger is more 'dangerous' weapon then bastard sword? It's actually makes less sense and more important than 'realism weight problem'.
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Old February 5, 2019, 05:43   #13
wobbly
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Would it be simpler to have weapon energy in a dex table running from 100 down to 16.
Then a multiplier in adjusted str/weight running from 2.0 down to 1.0

That gives you a balance where you are never getting more then twice the number of blows by switching to the dagger.

Edit: I'm assuming every class using the same blows table here(with an adjustment for warrior if necessary). Also suggesting a mage might have less then 1 blow/round with a big weapon & more then 1 blow/round with dagger & enough dex.

Last edited by wobbly; February 5, 2019 at 05:51.
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Old February 5, 2019, 15:38   #14
Derakon
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Quote:
Originally Posted by luneya View Post
Weapon weights have never been a measure of real-world weight, but rather of how awkward an object is to carry.
You say that, and that may well have been the original game designers' intent, but I can pretty much guarantee you that the majority of players that have given any thought to weapon weight have looked at our weapon weights and thought "WTF, a longsword doesn't weigh 10 pounds". It's misleading to use a unit of weight to measure encumbrance. If you wanted to rewrite things so that values were given in some artificial "unit of encumbrance" then you could keep the "weights" the way they are now...but you're only shifting the focus to other unrealistic ways we handle limiting what the player can carry.

Basically I see reducing weapon weights as a strict improvement to the system: it fixes one glaring misfeature without requiring substantial work or touching anything else. About the worst you can say about it is it makes the game slightly easier by letting the player carry more swap weapons, but if you're worried about that, tweaking carrying capacity is easy enough.
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Old February 5, 2019, 16:34   #15
MattB
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That said, I thought Luneya's post was well-reasoned. Maybe the solution is to make daggers 1d2 damage and recalibrate the weapons so that the heavier they are, the bigger the dice. Like it is now to a degree, of course, only more so.
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Old February 5, 2019, 20:05   #16
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Well, the simple answer is to divide all in-game weights and the player's carrying capacity be 3
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Old February 6, 2019, 17:29   #17
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It's high time I make some kind of contribution to Angband and since the current weapon system has bothered me for a couple of years now I'd like to take a stab at overhauling it (as a proposal).

Now, when I say I'd like to work on this problem, I don't mean I'm offering my coding services to fix it, but rather, I'll make a comprehensive post with all the weapons' weights improved and a detailed description of how each weapon performs with various STR/DEX combinations so that if someone who can code thinks my changes are useful they can easily just use my data and go in and make the necessary changes to the code without the burden of rebalancing the whole system (something I hope to achieve).

I'll be working on this problem bearing this thread's discussion in mind: my main goals will be to try to solve the problems of weak characters wielding heavy weapons early on and light weapons being useful deep into the dungeon. And making weapon weights closer to realism.

The overall effect of this overhaul should be that the weapons are much more interesting to the player; and that finding and using weapons should be more fun. This should be the case, regardless of the fact that the weapons will be more logical/realistic.

There's a good chance I'll fail and give up, but I think it's worth a shot, and since I'm unemployed right now, will be a fun challenge.

My first question: how much STR/DEX are currently required to achieve max blows with fists?
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Old February 6, 2019, 17:33   #18
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Didn't wobbly spend a lot of time on this very subject? I suggest talking with them before you dedicate too much effort, just to ensure you don't retread already-covered ground.
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Old February 7, 2019, 03:11   #19
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I played with it for a while before being distracted by real life stuff. I haven't got back into learning any code yet, got some things I need to sort out 1st. Anyway at 1 stage I had the weapons closely balanced but in a way that was boring because they all were pretty much the same. Made me realise there was a fundamental problem in that as long as weapons are pretty much just damage numbers (I'm ignoring stat sticks for the moment), it's hard to make them interesting - daggers can do more then long swords or vis versa or they can be identical but getting them to have a unique feel is hard without complicating the combat system. I'm yet to come up with a solution I like.

Mostly I'd be interested in what Grotug comes up with though I'm fine with answering questions if that's what he/she wants.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Grotug View Post
My first question: how much STR/DEX are currently required to achieve max blows with fists?
So if there's going to be a lot of questions like this I'd suggest you can save yourself a lot of time by just learning to read the table (in player-calcs.c). It's a little intimidating but not so bad once you're used to it.

So below this line:
static const int blows_table[12][12] =
in the bottom right corner is a 16, that's 6 blow(100/16)

see how it's column 11? That's 18/200+ dex, from this table:
Stat Table (DEX) -- index into the "blow" table

It's row 11. This is trickier, for the warrior you'll need this:
* Warrior --> num = 6; mul = 5; div = MAX(30, weapon_weight);
& this:
* To get "P", we look up the relevant "adj_str_blow[]" (see above),
* multiply it by "mul", and then divide it by "div", rounding down.
*

So any weapon below 30 deci-pounds (includes fist) counts as 30 deci-pounds for the warrior. Looking at the equation above & keeping in mind we are working in reverse order:
11 (row) * 30 (div) / 5 (mul) = 11 * 6 = 66 (adj_str_blow)

Reading this table:
* Stat Table (STR) -- help index into the "blow" table

18/50+ str

Last edited by wobbly; February 7, 2019 at 03:24.
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Old February 7, 2019, 14:52   #20
Grotug
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Shoot me now or forever hold your piece. sigh

Where/how do I find "player-calcs.c"? (on a lark, I downloaded MinGW in the hopes that this might be how I find "player-calcs.c", but I'm pretty mystified on how/what I'm supposed to do after running setup, I tried to follow the directions as best I could:

Quote:
Get MinGW and MSYS here: ​http://www.mingw.org/
Try using the automated installer.
Click through the installer, accepting the defaults until you get to "Choose components".
Tick the "MingGW Make" entry.
Enter the shell for your environment (in the case of MinGW, this is the Windows command prompt) and get into the src/ directory of the game.
Run make -f makefile.win. Add " MINGW=yes" to the end of that iff you're using MinGW.
So the "shell for my environment" is simply the windows run thingy? What does "src/ directory" mean? Is that the angband folder? or something else? When I type into the windows 10 run command: "c:\angband-4.1.3\make -f makefile.win MINGW=yes" I get the "Windows cannot find 'C:\Angband-4.1.3\make' message. Is MinGW supposed to make a 'make.exe' file?


-----------

Well, I don't intend on making all the weapons equally good; and at some level I will aim to preserve the good/bad weapon balance that already exists in the current system (although hopefully not in the current less than optimized way). There probably will still be some junk weapons (awl-pike might still be the ultimate bad weight to dice ratio weapon; just as I hope to keep the katana as the best dice to weight weapon). Incidentally, why have I never found a 4d5 or 5d5 katana? It seems, aside from the standart katana, I never find memorable randart katanas, or ego katanas; or memorable katanas period. Is there something in the code that prevents them from being buffed because of their good dice to weight ratio?
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