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Old April 14, 2019, 03:31   #1
Sparrow the Dunadan
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Thumbs down About Armor...

Okay, I'm a dumbass, and I don't understand the following...

Blue Dragon Scale Mail (-2) [12, +16] at 10 lbs

vs

Leather Scale Mail (-1) [20, +6] at 14 lbs
--

To me this doesn't make sense for one of two reasons. I can understand Leather Scale Mail being heavier based on its core AC of 20, but then shouldn't that make the slow effect -2 instead of the -1 value that it is given?

Also, it doesn't make a lot of sense to have Dragon Scale be less tough at its core value (thick IE less protective) than regular leather, unless elementalness is a factor (since this is blue dragon [Lightning] and would fall under a lighter category like how mithril is strong [protection wise] but light [weight wise], but in reverse {Since Lightning would be 'lightweight' element verses say Crystal or Multi-Hued}).

But then again dragons have to have lighter scales otherwise they couldn't fly (not all dragons fly, I realize this). However the whole mithril factor is an issue. Mithril is incredibly strong, but a lightweight material. Thus dragon scale should follow a similar formula based on the type of creature it was derived from. Like Blue Dragon Scale would weigh less and give moderately similar protection as regular leather.. but Balance Scale would weight more, but also give a decently better protection than regular leather.

TL;DR Dragon Scale should either weigh less but provide more protection or weigh more and yet still provide more protection.
-
I guess I'm overthinking things here though...
-

But I would still like to know the reasoning(s) for the differentials on armor protection rates and weights for the current version (4.1.3).
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Old April 14, 2019, 06:43   #2
Estie
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It used to be that dragon armor was heavier, with more AC and higher attack penalty than leathers, just like you would expect. But bll basic armor types have been boosted a while ago, the AC values increased all over the board. Not the dragon mails, though.

Iirc, leather scale mail used to have base AC 11.
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Old April 14, 2019, 07:59   #3
Sparrow the Dunadan
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Estie View Post
It used to be that dragon armor was heavier, with more AC and higher attack penalty than leathers, just like you would expect. But bll basic armor types have been boosted a while ago, the AC values increased all over the board. Not the dragon mails, though.

Iirc, leather scale mail used to have base AC 11.
Yes, but what is the reasoning behind this change? Is it a game balance thing, and if so, how does it balance?
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Old April 14, 2019, 08:54   #4
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that -2 is not a speed debuff, it's a to-hit penalty due to the encumberance (not weight) of the armour. leather is more supple than scales.

-2 is absolutely irrelevant. -50 would be noticeble, but -2 is more an aesthetic thing rather than a value which actually affects gameplay.
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Old April 14, 2019, 10:17   #5
Sparrow the Dunadan
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sky View Post
that -2 is not a speed debuff, it's a to-hit penalty due to the encumberance (not weight) of the armour. leather is more supple than scales.

-2 is absolutely irrelevant. -50 would be noticeble, but -2 is more an aesthetic thing rather than a value which actually affects gameplay.
AH! That makes MUCH more sense. Then I should start wearing those armors, yes?
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Old April 14, 2019, 14:25   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sparrow the Dunadan View Post
Yes, but what is the reasoning behind this change? Is it a game balance thing, and if so, how does it balance?
The issue was (and still is, despite the change) that for a character with low str, so mostly in the early game, armor is a double edged item: while it offers some protection from melee damage, it also tends to weigh a lot, reducing the amount of consumables you can carry before dropping to negative speed.

So rather than wearing armor, it might be better to have more scrolls/potions/staves etc. because melee damage is low on the danger list for @ as it is applied in small amounts, meaning you can always ?phase, heal up and re-engage instead of relying on the (random) damage reductioon from your armor. The idea of the AC buff was that with higher protection offered, this situation might change if the positive effect would dominate the negative (the weight).

Later in the game, the armor becomes purely a carrier of modifiers. You are going to wear an armor of elvenkind regardless of its base type and ignore itīs AC value or weight.
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Old April 14, 2019, 16:01   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Estie View Post
The issue was (and still is, despite the change) that for a character with low str, so mostly in the early game, armor is a double edged item: while it offers some protection from melee damage, it also tends to weigh a lot, reducing the amount of consumables you can carry before dropping to negative speed.

So rather than wearing armor, it might be better to have more scrolls/potions/staves etc. because melee damage is low on the danger list for @ as it is applied in small amounts, meaning you can always ?phase, heal up and re-engage instead of relying on the (random) damage reductioon from your armor. The idea of the AC buff was that with higher protection offered, this situation might change if the positive effect would dominate the negative (the weight).

Later in the game, the armor becomes purely a carrier of modifiers. You are going to wear an armor of elvenkind regardless of its base type and ignore itīs AC value or weight.
Okay, that makes sense. So next question, what constitutes low STR? in vers. 4.1.3 ?

Right now I'm running a LVL 26 Dunadan Ranger (Sparrow) with a STR stat of 18. She is wearing Soft Leather Armor of Resist Fire [8, +6].

Should I be going for tougher armor at this point (ones with the -1 & -2 to hit penalty)?... meaning going for armors with higher than the overall [14] AC than my current armor provides, despite it Resist Fire protection (because I have a ring of Flames I can activate for Fire RES if needed.)?
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Old April 14, 2019, 16:22   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sparrow the Dunadan View Post
Okay, that makes sense. So next question, what constitutes low STR? in vers. 4.1.3 ?

Right now I'm running a LVL 26 Dunadan Ranger (Sparrow) with a STR stat of 18. She is wearing Soft Leather Armor of Resist Fire [8, +6].

Should I be going for tougher armor at this point (ones with the -1 & -2 to hit penalty)?... meaning going for armors with higher than the overall [14] AC than my current armor provides, despite it Resist Fire protection (because I have a ring of Flames I can activate for Fire RES if needed.)?
First of all, the (-2) penalty to hit is a relic from old times; maybe it was relevant in some age old version, but with the current combat system it is not. You can completely ignore that penalty.

18 str is middlish; enough to not have to worry about the weight of consumables but not enough to disregard all weight yet. Youll have to worry what to leave behind when you drop to negative speed, which shouldnt be too painful unlike with a, say, gnome mage.

As for your armor, when I play and find an armor with a useful resist like yours, I squelch all {good} armors.
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Old April 14, 2019, 17:51   #9
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Also remember that the DSM can be activated for a breath attack. In 4.1.x, that'll be a cone breath, which isn't nearly as effective as the old ball spell, but can still help you with clearing out hordes of annoying things.
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Old April 14, 2019, 18:36   #10
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The basic dragon scale mails (for the four common elements) used to be much more rare, to the point that by the time you found them you were practically guaranteed to have something better. They were made more common and shallower, but to compensate their AC bonuses were reduced. Later dragon scale mails for more exotic elements have correspondingly higher AC bonuses.

And yeah, that breath weapon can be quite handy. It recharges quickly enough that you can lead off most fights with a fairly potent breath, significantly reducing how long the fight lasts (and thus how much damage you take, how many consumables you use, etc.)
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