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Old January 11, 2021, 03:44   #21
Neigeden
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I don't know if I can tell the difference of +3 stealth, but it definitely feels different having very bad stealth vs at least ok stealth in terms of picking fights and how long I can be at on a level with dangerous monsters before I have to get out of Dodge.

I think the whole rogues being stealthy thing would be more interesting if stealing items was more worthwhile. It seems to me that when I'm able to safely steal something I either could have killed the monster anyway, or I don't get anything interesting. I would be interested to hear others' thoughts on this though.
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Old January 11, 2021, 04:35   #22
bughunter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Neigeden View Post
I think the whole rogues being stealthy thing would be more interesting if stealing items was more worthwhile. It seems to me that when I'm able to safely steal something I either could have killed the monster anyway, or I don't get anything interesting. I would be interested to hear others' thoughts on this though.
Well, first, stealth is more than just for stealing.

It's a HUGE tactical advantage to be able to wake up monsters one at a time with an attack, and kite it out to an area where you can pillar dance it or into a big open room so you can shoot and scoot.

You get to choose who, when and where to fight, not the monster or the RNG.

Second, I agree that rogues' stealing is uninteresting.

Early game, yea, it's useful. But once your inventory becomes full, it becomes easier to just kill the dragon and sort thru its horde. By the time I get Hit and Run, my rogues haven't been pickpocketing for 20 dungeon levels or more...

(Perhaps if you first had the option to investigate what it might be carrying, even if it's just a feeling, like level feelings.)
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Old January 11, 2021, 05:12   #23
archolewa
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Personally, I think Hit and Run would better if it lasted longer, and teleported you even on a failed theft attempt. Then, you could cast it before doing something dangerous, and you have a teleport that cant fail in your back pocket in case you need to skedaddle.

And who knows, maybe youll get a nice consolation prize to boot.
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Old January 11, 2021, 05:27   #24
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Yeah, it would be nice if Hit and Run were more useful, especially since it's such a unique and in-character ability for the class.

Also, on the topic of rogues making use of stealth more generally, it seems almost a crime to me that they don't get some sort of crit/bonus for attacking sleeping monsters; it could only apply to certain weapons, like daggers and the like. it just seems right that a rogue should get more excited about a powerful dagger than a comparable longsword.
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Old January 11, 2021, 08:04   #25
bughunter
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Originally Posted by Neigeden View Post
Yeah, it would be nice if Hit and Run were more useful, especially since it's such a unique and in-character ability for the class.

Also, on the topic of rogues making use of stealth more generally, it seems almost a crime to me that they don't get some sort of crit/bonus for attacking sleeping monsters; it could only apply to certain weapons, like daggers and the like. it just seems right that a rogue should get more excited about a powerful dagger than a comparable longsword.
Maybe with a spell like "Backstab"? It'd work kinda like Confuse Monster.

I'd be happier with that in the Rogue dungeon spellbook than with Hit and Run.

Plus, by consuming SP, it would make SP a critical resource for rogues... as it is, I seldom get even close to running out.
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Old January 11, 2021, 09:30   #26
Sky
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the problem with stealth is that, unless you have Awful stealth, monsters will still sleep. You will still be able to kite them. Many mobs just need a corridor anyway, more so if you've invested into damage over stealth.
Same reason i've never worn a ring of CON, not even +6, there's always better alternatives.
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Old January 11, 2021, 09:50   #27
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There are some monsters like hounds, ents and dreads, who are just too wide awake even with high levels of stealth.

I always max out stealth with home swaps for the farming phase just before the final battles. It annoys me that pits of dreads still notice me when I'm trying to skirt around them. I think legendary stealth should be buffed, and the player should decide exactly when a monster notices them (even the most alert monsters).

Maybe legendary stealth could also throw pursuing monsters off the scent and they could stop chasing you over a certain number of squares away.

I value stealth as a stat and always play dive fast, detect then smash and grab the treasures. I just wish it was more distinct when you maxed it out. Even if it was made a slightly rarer gain on armour.
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Old January 11, 2021, 10:58   #28
Adam
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I always max out stealth with home swaps for the farming phase just before the final battles. It annoys me that pits of dreads still notice me when I'm trying to skirt around them. I think legendary stealth should be buffed, and the player should decide exactly when a monster notices them (even the most alert monsters).
Monsters in graveyard are generated as awake if i'm correct. So stealth does not help against those pits of dreads.
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Old January 11, 2021, 12:43   #29
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you need to look at stealth as affected by game time.

So, for example; shields of Elvenkind will have +1 or +2; but by the time you find them, you're more likely to be looking at plugging a rChaos or rNexus hole than the stealth bonus, because you can take awake mobs without issue .. if anything you're LOOKING for mobs to get xp.

Boots of Stealth can be great early on as they can go up to +3, IF you have FA, normally through gloves. Even warriors will do this as there are no gloves of Slaying or Power early on.

(besides, if you play with randarts, stealth is just gon' be there, in the artifacts.it's not something that you need to go look for.)

obviously if you are a suicidal diver, then stealth becomes more important, because you're not looking to "get exp to match the level of threat faced".
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Old January 11, 2021, 12:46   #30
Nick
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Interesting comments on Hit and Run - I haven't thought very hard about it, maybe it could use some work.

In FAangband, rogues get native backstab ability rather than a spell, and that is always a possibility for Vanilla.
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