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Old December 6, 2019, 14:11   #11
Pete Mack
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His list isn't bad, per se. Some of those changes are modest UI changes or improving measagw clarity, and he already said he will stsrt with those. I agree that monster lore is not easy to read as it is now--a briefer format at least as an option would help. For weapons and armor, it'd be particularly valuable on smaller screens, and in charactet dumps.

I will point out that I never made a variant, but contributed a few thousand lines back when Takkaria first took over, to improve UI and make a first stab at rationalizing the code (along with the Sidwells and pelpel.) V 3.0.9 was the result.

Last edited by Pete Mack; December 6, 2019 at 14:16.
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Old December 6, 2019, 14:44   #12
DavidMedley
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Loot System

I came up with a system for easily managing loot in my yet-untitled CRPG. I think it's something I could port right into Angband and improve quality of life. Basically, it breaks down anything that's valuable but not practical adventuring gear into broad loot categories that step up in value by a factor of 4 or 5. From my notes:

Quote:
This is a system for describing valuable items that are of no use to the adventurers other than to sell them. An arrow, a potion of healing and a vorpal longsword +5 would all fit on this table somewhere, but would be described individually instead of using this system because they have use on the adventure. A pile of gold coins, on the other hand, is only useful once the adventure is over. Using this system you can describe the loot adventurers get in very general terms. If their carrying capacity is limited then it's easy to determine what they take and what they leave behind. In addition, Objects which might have value to some adventurers, like a magical sword, but don't have value to the character(s) that actually find it, like a wizard who already has a weapon that suits him better, those things can be de-itemized and placed into this system instead.
For Angband, first we'll leave all money in town. Next, all the precious metals and stones you find in the dungeon have some weight - but not a lot. We'll give 1 inventory slot to this generic "loot" per 20 lbs or so - same as Iron Shots in your quiver. Anything you find in the dungeon that you don't want to use you can "loot" or "put in loot" or "scrap" and it'll be broken down into the 2 closest categories of loot. If you get overburdened it'll be easy to dump the lowest value loot first, and we can also put in automatic options, too. When you return to town, you'll automatically fence all your loot. You can sell individual items to shops if you want to have the option to purchase them later or need them ID'ed or recharged, but if you just want the fair value you can loot it anywhere in the town and it'll be sold automatically. Alternatively, players could be required to go to the black market to fence their loot, but they'd get a fair price.

I'd also like to add a bit of thematic flair where Rangers can skin animals, and if that goes over then we can add more stuff like that for other classes.

Obviously this causes some shockwaves in other systems... monsters that pick your pocket will have to change. It'll shine a light on the value of stuff, too, which will be a pain in the ass but good long term. Like, the value of a Ring of Free action, per pound, is much higher than many artifacts. But I think it can be a great system, especially for games like Frog where managing loot is such a hassle.

I've put up two new tabs in my public Angband spreadsheet. One is "Loot System" which is copied straight from my game development sheets. While the loot table found here is not finalized, it's pretty good. You can also see many of the sources I've used to form these values. The second tab is "Selected Items" where I took 40 items (at time of writing) from object.txt and artifact.txt. I ranked them by value density and then calculated how much "loot" you'd get for each item. (REALLY rough normalizing factor used.) E.g., a 2.2 lb torch gives 2 lbs of "Necessities" and .2 lbs of "Low Quality Equipment." 0.5 lb Scroll of Word of Recall gives 0.2 lbs "High Quality Equipment" and 0.3 lbs "Treasure." 13 lb Elvagil (the lowest value density artifact in the sheet) gives 10.6 lbs of Silver and 2.4 lbs of "Precious Treasure" which is a poorly named category between Silver and Gold. The One Ring is off the top of my chart at the moment.

This system, like everything in my game, will be released under a CC BY-SA license (or something similar). If somehow you want to use it soon for a published work I'll get that licensing part figured out asap.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...it?usp=sharing

Last edited by DavidMedley; December 6, 2019 at 14:50.
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Old December 6, 2019, 14:47   #13
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Originally Posted by Gwarl View Post
I will just say that a new face turning up and making gameplay changes directly to mainline angband is unprecedented as far as I'm aware.
OK. I'm new. I'm asking around. I'm not at all trying to call the shots. I'm definitely not expecting to come in out of the blue and change the fundamentals of Angband by fiat.
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Old December 6, 2019, 14:49   #14
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Originally Posted by Gwarl View Post
I could write whole essays on why non-persistence of levels makes angband what it is. It's the pivot on which the whole rhythm and style of the game and all of its many children turn.
For sure! There's already a "Persistent Levels (experimental)" birth option. That's where I assumed I would work on my ideas for semi-persistent levels, if the feedback I got made me want to pursue this.
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Old December 6, 2019, 15:03   #15
Gwarl
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pete Mack View Post
His list isn't bad, per se. Some of those changes are modest UI changes or improving measagw clarity, and he already said he will stsrt with those. I agree that monster lore is not easy to read as it is now--a briefer format at least as an option would help. For weapons and armor, it'd be particularly valuable on smaller screens, and in charactet dumps.

I will point out that I never made a variant, but contributed a few thousand lines back when Takkaria first took over, to improve UI and make a first stab at rationalizing the code (along with the Sidwells and pelpel.) V 3.0.9 was the result.
Yes, UI and code improvements have traditionally been accepted by all and sundry. But the configuration of spellbooks and the spells avaiable to the casting classes in the 3.x era was field tested in GSNband before being adopted by vanilla.

I'm seeming argumentative at this point, perhaps, I just wanted to clarify.
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Old December 6, 2019, 15:16   #16
Pete Mack
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@David-
This seems both excessively complicated and unnecessary. There already is a way to convert loot to gold: it is the no_sell option. The amount of gold you get is discounted for the convenience of not having to recall all the time. With squelch and rune ID, the junk quickly disappears from the game--it serves only as a disguise for genuinely useful objects.
Eddie groves (aka powerdiver) got this right. Indeed, eddieband got a nunber of things right. Unfortunately he used the old codebase and it is a huge headache to unify his changes.

One last point: the goal should be to spend more time in the dungeon and less in town. Giving gold a weight penalty does the opposite.
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Old December 6, 2019, 15:21   #17
Gwarl
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Originally Posted by Pete Mack View Post
Indeed, eddieband got a nunber of things right. Unfortunately he used the old codebase and it is a huge headache to unify his changes.
This sentence does imply however that the source code for a variant I was previously unaware of exists. Do tell.
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Old December 6, 2019, 15:22   #18
DavidMedley
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Originally Posted by Pete Mack View Post
@David-
This seems both excessively complicated and unnecessary. There already is a way to convert loot to gold: it is the no_sell option.
Well, I may be trying to put a square peg in a round hole. Not everyone likes no_sell, but even with selling on Vanilla does a good job of keeping the hassle of selling stuff in the town to a minimum. Frogcomposband, on the other hand, has no_sell disabled by default and is a bit of a nightmare to fence your loot.

Last edited by DavidMedley; December 6, 2019 at 15:41.
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Old December 6, 2019, 15:28   #19
DavidMedley
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pete Mack View Post
the goal should be to spend more time in the dungeon and less in town.
Scrapping/looting as you go and instantly fencing that stuff upon recall will accomplish this, certainly with selling on. Honestly, I think it could make item management even simpler than no_sell. When I play no_sell I'm still hording a lot of stuff and agonizing over what to keep and what to destroy. If I could quickly get a fair price for something I don't expect to use, that could reduce my inventory agony considerably.
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Old December 6, 2019, 15:31   #20
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The weight of gold compared to its value will be very low. Silver pretty value dense as well. When you get down to copper you're starting to have similar value-to-weight to your equipment, though.
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