Summoning

[Sky]

...they are not really amazing if all you do is dispel them.

[Nick]

Originally Posted by Huqhox

Why do we have (essentially) one summon mechanic. Why not have more? This would make monsters more interesting and different as well as being useful from a thematic point of view.

So you could have some different ones like (names are pretty random)

Summon minions: Summons only lesser monsters which act like bodyguards
Summon assistance: As current summon, so may attract higher level monsters
Conjure monster: Summoned monsters (usually constructs etc) vanish when the summoner is killed
Call for help: Summons a monster but not adjacent to the summoner but somewhere else on the level, awake and heading for the position of the summoner. This one is really for Ringwraiths but could find other uses I'm sure

I like this line of thinking. There is already a (currently unused) different summon type of "calling monsters", where monsters are gathered from elsewhere on the level instead of being created new. I will be thinking seriously about how to implement some variant of these ideas.

[Derakon]

Some additional ideas, just brainstorming here:

* Summon chaff: brings in a large number of weak enemies to get in the player's way.
* Summoning circle: places a glyph on the floor that, in a set amount of game time, will be replaced by a high-level summoned monster. The player may attempt to disarm the glyph.
* Swap places: the monster exchanges positions with another monster (possibly only one the monster can see?)
* Animate Rock: converts adjacent walls into earth elementals (Earth Spirit for magma/quartz?).

Where the conditions for the spell aren't met, the monster shouldn't try to cast it, e.g. not casting Swap Places if there's no valid target.

[Ingwe Ingweron]

Originally Posted by Nick

I like this line of thinking. There is already a (currently unused) different summon type of "calling monsters", where monsters are gathered from elsewhere on the level instead of being created new. I will be thinking seriously about how to implement some variant of these ideas.

You might talk with Fizzix. I remember him doing a version where summons would only bring monsters that were already on the level.

[Pete Mack]

Nick-
Bringing in a number of dungeon level generated monsters (or slightly above) is equivent to bringing in a bunch of monsters from elsewhere on the level. This should be the default against which you decide other mechanics. Don't over think it.

[Nick]

Originally Posted by Ingwe Ingweron

You might talk with Fizzix. I remember him doing a version where summons would only bring monsters that were already on the level.

Precisely - this code is still in the codebase, unused.

Originally Posted by Pete Mack

Nick-
Bringing in a number of dungeon level generated monsters (or slightly above) is equivent to bringing in a bunch of monsters from elsewhere on the level. This should be the default against which you decide other mechanics. Don't over think it.

There are some potentially interesting cases - for example, a monster might call precisely the monsters that the player has already teleported away

[Thraalbee]

I like these ideas. Just dont go all in ending up with poscheng style oversummoning. I only fully enjoy the second half of those games with an [S amulet which is super rare.

[Huqhox]

Originally Posted by Derakon

Some additional ideas, just brainstorming here:

* Summon chaff: brings in a large number of weak enemies to get in the player's way.
* Summoning circle: places a glyph on the floor that, in a set amount of game time, will be replaced by a high-level summoned monster. The player may attempt to disarm the glyph.
* Swap places: the monster exchanges positions with another monster (possibly only one the monster can see?)
* Animate Rock: converts adjacent walls into earth elementals (Earth Spirit for magma/quartz?).

Where the conditions for the spell aren't met, the monster shouldn't try to cast it, e.g. not casting Swap Places if there's no valid target.

I like the sound of these too. I think there's a lot of interesting things that can be done with summoning which shouldn't change the balance but would make monsters more interesting

[Sparrow the Dunadan]

Originally Posted by Sky

From a practical point of view, i think monsters should summon others "1 tier" below them; to avoid a monster summoning a summoner who summons summoners.

The ringwraits should be able to summon each other and do so frequently as they travel in pack by canon.

Ancalong should summon a bunch of dragons, Glaurung should summon a horde.

Ungoliant should summon tons of strong new spirit, spider-like mobs; shelob is a loner.

The Radagast summons are pathetic. I still think Radagast should not be an enemy, it's like having to fight Galadriel; i also assume Ulmo and Arien are likely enemies of Morgoth in the canon.

Cantoras is pretty solid with the summons.

Horned Reapers are too strong. It takes long enough to kill one that they often summon another and i've had levels inundated by reapers like it's breeders.

Balrogs by canon should summin each other, but in game, they should summon smaller demons, or *rarely* other balrogs.

Lungorthin should summon balrogs regularly and Gothmog should summin a horde, like Glaurung - he is the CAPTAIN of the balrogs, as glaurung is the father of all dragons.



I would like to see a system where summons are similar to escorts, but some uniques right now are only killable if you are OP, if you abuse LoS, or have Banish.

I assume Radagast is an 'enemy' because you can play kobolds, half-orcs and half-trolls. I mean you have to fight Farmer Maggot, even though if I remember right, he was stolen from; he still helped Frodo's company in part of the books?