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Old June 15, 2011, 22:30   #1
Bahman Rabii
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Point based stats and gain/lose potions

Is it just me or does the addition of these potions - which make stats a little more fungible - give a big incentive to maximizing your total stats at birth rather than driving up your main stats purely? For example, a 6-point buy on 4 stats looks pretty appealing for some toons now, such as a Priest with even points to Str/Wis/Dex/Con. You can get then use the potions to reallocate into your main stats aggressively (in this case drinking Contemplation and Brawn while hoping not to lose too much Dex).

This seems like a good thing. There will still be times when you want to start with highly imbalanced stats, but now the balanced start seems to be at least competitive.
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Old June 15, 2011, 22:54   #2
Derakon
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I don't think so. Most characters want to max the hell out of certain stats and don't care much at all about others, and the gain one/lose one potions just exacerbate that. I routinely have characters with near-max STR/DEX/CON and other stats significantly lower than they started out. The nonlinear gains at the upper end of the scale are especially significant, giving even more blows / even better spellcasting / even more hitpoints.

Certainly you'll be closer to finishing stat gain as a whole if you avoid the diminishing returns when allocating your starting stats...but you'll be closer to maxing the stats you care about if you spend 8+ points on them at the start.

If you want to invalidate min/maxing, then make all stats important for all characters.
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Old June 16, 2011, 06:59   #3
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Originally Posted by Derakon View Post
I don't think so. Most characters want to max the hell out of certain stats and don't care much at all about others, and the gain one/lose one potions just exacerbate that. ....

If you want to invalidate min/maxing, then make all stats important for all characters.
The nexus hound breathes.

base INT 3 swaps with base STR 18/100.

INT is an important stat after all....
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Old June 16, 2011, 07:11   #4
Derakon
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Given the incredibly low odds of a stat swap occurring (assuming you play at all carefully -- that effect has a 1 in 8 chance of occurring when you're hit by nexus and you get a saving throw), it's simply not worth boosting dump stats at the cost of primary stats.

Besides, you're pretty well hosed if your STR and INT swap if your INT's 11 vs. it being 3. You still won't be able to kill anything in melee.
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Old June 16, 2011, 22:10   #5
Bahman Rabii
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Certainly you'll be closer to finishing stat gain as a whole if you avoid the diminishing returns when allocating your starting stats...but you'll be closer to maxing the stats you care about if you spend 8+ points on them at the start.
I guess I feel like the gain/lose potions allow enough specialization on top of a 6 or 8 point buy, so it is less of a no-brainer to include a 12 point buy.

6/6/6/6 is the extreme for efficiency, but 8/8/8, 8/8/4/4 are fairly efficient too. Without the gain/lose pots I would rarely use any of these - I would use the more focused buys of 12/12, 12/8/4, and 12/6/6. Even now I like the more focused buys depending on the class (particularly for Warriors and Mages).

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Originally Posted by Derakon View Post
If you want to invalidate min/maxing, then make all stats important for all characters.
I don't want to invalidating min/maxing, and I have no problem with some stats being weaker for some toons. (CHR is an exception - it needs a new purpose to exist, or it needs to go away.)

This was meant as an observation, not an agenda.
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Old June 18, 2011, 20:20   #6
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I now start my fighters with 6/6/6/2/2/2 instead of 8/8/8.
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Old June 18, 2011, 22:07   #7
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I now start my fighters with 6/6/6/2/2/2 instead of 8/8/8.
As in STR/INT/WIS/DEX/CON/CHR ?

That sounds odd, CHR at least is easy to obtain as potions of CHR so that is one stat I wouldn't bother putting points in.
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Old June 18, 2011, 23:41   #8
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As in STR/INT/WIS/DEX/CON/CHR ?

That sounds odd, CHR at least is easy to obtain as potions of CHR so that is one stat I wouldn't bother putting points in.
As in important/unimportant. 8/2/2/8/8/2 if you insist. Previously 8/3/3/8/8/0, but it's easier to boost INT/WIS than CHR if you dive fast enough. I changed after CHR was the last stat to max often enough to notice. I stock !intellect and !contemplation at home in case I get deep and int or wis is much lower than the rest. A couple of !*ENLIGHTENMENT after starting 3/3/0 means that you need to find 5 more !CHR to break even.
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Old June 19, 2011, 00:10   #9
Timo Pietilš
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Originally Posted by PowerDiver View Post
As in important/unimportant. 8/2/2/8/8/2 if you insist. Previously 8/3/3/8/8/0, but it's easier to boost INT/WIS than CHR if you dive fast enough. I changed after CHR was the last stat to max often enough to notice. I stock !intellect and !contemplation at home in case I get deep and int or wis is much lower than the rest. A couple of !*ENLIGHTENMENT after starting 3/3/0 means that you need to find 5 more !CHR to break even.
Wow. This shows that extreme diving can cause odd results in stat-gaining. This definitely is not the case with normal diving. CHR might not be the first to max usually because add one lose one -potions that hit CHR don't get fixed by CHR-potions faster than stat you use them, but INT or WIS rarely are faster maxed than CHR for me.

Also some RNG tricks sometimes come to play with those potions, my last char had all other stats maxed when int was still at 15 points. I did drink all INT-potions I found, but there just were not enough to increase it as fast as others. Warrior, so I ignored WIS-lose one gain one -potions as well, and that was still maxed soon enough.
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Old June 19, 2011, 00:29   #10
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Anecdotally, the last time I won I never finished maxing charisma. IIRC the last stat I did max out was INT somewhere in the 90s. Started 8/8/8 str/dex/con and didn't use intellect or contemplation. I didn't ignore charisma potions and in fact bought a few from the BM. Just one of those silly things that happens.
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