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Old July 4, 2010, 02:44   #11
d_m
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To be perfectly honest, I've started a straight port of Angband to Python before. It's not hard so much as really time consuming and boring (Angband is around 150,000 lines of C). Also once you're rewriting Angband the temptation to drastically improve on it is hard to resist.

I think moving toward a "more modern" language would obviously aid future development. Although at that point only future Angband variants (or those which were rewritten in language X) would even benefit. So in the short term it wouldn't address Nick's concern at all.

I think this exposes an existing tension in the Angband Vanilla/Variant ecosystem.
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Old July 4, 2010, 04:51   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by d_m View Post
I think moving toward a "more modern" language would obviously aid future development. Although at that point only future Angband variants (or those which were rewritten in language X) would even benefit. So in the short term it wouldn't address Nick's concern at all.
Yeah, I'm very much looking at something evolutionary, and easy.

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I think this exposes an existing tension in the Angband Vanilla/Variant ecosystem.
Yes indeed, but often the tension is a good thing. The last thing I would want to see is all the variants becoming a bland mush - I'm trying to focus on features that are just an annoyance if you don't have them, rather than being part of the feel of the individual variant.
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Old July 4, 2010, 05:18   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nick View Post
Yes indeed, but often the tension is a good thing. The last thing I would want to see is all the variants becoming a bland mush - I'm trying to focus on features that are just an annoyance if you don't have them, rather than being part of the feel of the individual variant.
So are you imagining FA/O as being the base for this? Are there any major UI features V or other variants have that you'd want? Would this start as a term-XXX.c standardization?

I feel like the term-XXX files are currently the easiest to port, and what is really needed is a level of abstraction that V doesn't currently have (a way to effectively wrap all the term_out() calls and so forth). Maybe FA has this?

EDIT: I also worry about the discussion bifurcation that your blog is causing
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Old July 4, 2010, 05:42   #14
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Originally Posted by d_m View Post
So are you imagining FA/O as being the base for this? Are there any major UI features V or other variants have that you'd want? Would this start as a term-XXX.c standardization?

I feel like the term-XXX files are currently the easiest to port, and what is really needed is a level of abstraction that V doesn't currently have (a way to effectively wrap all the term_out() calls and so forth). Maybe FA has this?
Probably, yes, yes, not really. I have updated the FA low-level code to the latest (or at least a recent) version of V two or three times; Jeff is currently going through the same thing for NPP. At the moment a number of things in V are more advanced than FA, and there are several things which are better (or at least different - opinions may vary ) in FA than V. My thought is that the simplest thing is to start with FA and see what evolves - with the first thing to do being to align with V as much as possible.

I'm actually fairly happy with the main-xxx files as they are - although I think there's a whole nother conversation to have about what OSs we need ports for.

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I also worry about the discussion bifurcation that your blog is causing
Yes. I started the blog because I didn't want to rabbit on here too much about peripheral stuff, but I don't know how good an idea it was really.
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Old July 4, 2010, 05:52   #15
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At the moment a number of things in V are more advanced than FA, and there are several things which are better (or at least different - opinions may vary ) in FA than V.
I seem to recall that you have solved the "description too long to fit in an 80x24 terminal without scrolling" problem in a way that V should adopt.

Definitely let me know if you make progress on this idea, have patches you'd like committed to V to help align it better, or have specific suggestions on what to change. My time to work on Angband is somewhat sporadic but I'm definitely interested.
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Old July 4, 2010, 13:23   #16
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I'd say no to that, as I'd rather not see Angband get embroiled in Microsoft software patent disputes.
Not sure what you mean by that, as I'm not aware of any patent disputes going on with the .NET platform, and even if there were, unless the platform were ruled flat-out ILLEGAL, I can't see that affecting code written against it; it just might slow down future development of the platform itself :P

Besides, I was being kinda facetious... I know not everything is gonna be written in C#, that's just in my dream world that it is

edit: oh, by the way, if someone does take this seriously, there is Cryptband
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Old July 4, 2010, 13:39   #17
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I seem to recall that you have solved the "description too long to fit in an 80x24 terminal without scrolling" problem in a way that V should adopt.
I've got a hackish way for small screens which does fairly ruthless abbreviation. I always intended to do a proper method which checked how much space there was and prioritised information, but never got around to it.

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Definitely let me know if you make progress on this idea, have patches you'd like committed to V to help align it better, or have specific suggestions on what to change. My time to work on Angband is somewhat sporadic but I'm definitely interested.
I will keep you posted. I'm currently trying to work out if there's a good way to deal with multiple variants sharing some code in a version control system.
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Old July 4, 2010, 13:48   #18
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Not sure if there really is a way to share source code like that without breaking all the variants whenever the base library interface changes... and even when the implementation changes, someone's variant might depend on some quirk of the old system! Probably best to use some sort of library system - static link, dynamic link, whatever - instead of having everyone's code rely on the same source which might change!

Then again, dealing with changes IS the major strength of version control systems... perhaps if you used one with good branching support, you could say "OK, so the 'vanilla' branch includes r175 of anglib, and so do FA and O, but, say, Sangband isn't quite up to speed with the latest changes, and only includes r162..."
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Old July 4, 2010, 14:48   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ekolis View Post
Not sure what you mean by that, as I'm not aware of any patent disputes going on with the .NET platform, and even if there were, unless the platform were ruled flat-out ILLEGAL, I can't see that affecting code written against it; it just might slow down future development of the platform itself :P

Besides, I was being kinda facetious... I know not everything is gonna be written in C#, that's just in my dream world that it is

edit: oh, by the way, if someone does take this seriously, there is Cryptband
What he means is that Microsoft doesn't do openness, and when it purports to produce something open, there is always another agenda. So those of us for whom libre > gratis would steer clear of anything encumbered by a non-free licence (that's "non-free" in the Debian sense). AFAICT this rules out both C# and java, but not Python.
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Old July 4, 2010, 15:18   #20
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OK, I guess I don't get the whole "everything must be open-source, even your dev tools"... is anyone seriously looking at rewriting the C *compiler* or something?
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