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Old February 18, 2017, 15:30   #41
Carnivean
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nick View Post
Possible answers include
  1. Yes
  2. Trap doors are always visible
  3. Trap doors are frequently visible, and he'll get better and better at detecting them
  4. He should just feel lucky it wasn't an explosion trap

Actual answer? Don't know, it hasn't been coded yet
I like 3. Grotug's plan echos the rune ID theory in that the players learns as they go. Early game pain becomes mid game mild annoyance becomes end game irrelevance.

The alternative is Derakon's "traps are useless" theory, but I don't think that we need to resort to that yet.
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Old February 18, 2017, 16:37   #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nick View Post
What is wrong with this? What have I missed?
This looks good to me, but it's unclear whether you want to keep being able to re-search the same grid for traps multiple times, using either the 's'earch command or just through movement. I think getting rid of it would be good for the reason you mention about hitting the search key constantly being optimal gameplay otherwise.

However, you still want some randomness in whether you detect things or not and Scatha suggested the following elegant solution back in 2012:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scatha View Post
The natural way to implement this mechanic is to have each trap get a random difficulty level assigned on creation (distribution can depend on depth and trap type), and you spot it if your searching (+distance modifier + searching bonus) is ever high enough.
This avoids the problem where repeated searching is the optimal gameplay while not needing to store any extra data per grid about whether it's been searched or not.

Also I'd love to see LOS searching, like what ewert did (and v4 too), where you have a chance of seeing traps up to 3 grids away. And the other change I noticed in that branch that made sense to me was having some chance of avoiding a trap, dependent on DEX. At the moment there is sometimes a saving throw on particular traps if triggered, but this would be a check to see if you avoided triggering it at all and would apply to all traps.
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Last edited by takkaria; February 18, 2017 at 18:03.
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Old February 18, 2017, 17:08   #43
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takkaria, if this was Reddit, you'd be getting my vote.

To remove the mage/priest perfect detection issue, you could combine the above with a perception/searching skill buff.
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Old February 18, 2017, 17:59   #44
chknflyrice
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nick View Post
Possible answers include
  1. Yes
  2. Trap doors are always visible
  3. Trap doors are frequently visible, and he'll get better and better at detecting them
  4. He should just feel lucky it wasn't an explosion trap

Actual answer? Don't know, it hasn't been coded yet
I believe that I heard some mention that feather falling could provide a high chance for a player to avoid falling down a trap door. If he is falling so slow cant he just reach out and grab the other side? That does bring FF back as a worth while stat to have and constantly falling through trap doors would (I think) be WAY more annoying than spamming TD all the time. This would just mean having a stat swap item for part of the early game until the player has built up his detection/disarming of this trap.

Last edited by chknflyrice; February 18, 2017 at 18:10.
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Old February 18, 2017, 18:54   #45
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Obviously Nick wins, but I still think (Derakon's + my) suggestion is the best one yet. Obviously .

Still, I see Nick's idea as a stepping stone to the realization of the Ultimate Truth. Which is to say (Derakon+Me). Because it's an awesome mechanic which you will all be subjected to... eventually when I or Derakon are the rulers of the world. So there.
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Old February 19, 2017, 11:09   #46
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I like most of the newest version, though I think Rogues should get magical trap detection at about the same time Mages do, and Priests should not get it ever, in order to make classes more consistent with their strengths (Rogues, sneaking around with magic assistance, Mages, dungeon control, Priests, healing and healing and also healing). It really bothers me that Priests are miles better at detection than Mages are. Priests get Detection, which shaves off several turns at every detection and allows you to see everything at once. Priests get magic mapping, which is just plain amazing. Priests eventually even get Clairvoyance. For a field where Priests are terrible early on, and Mages specialize in, that feels wrong.
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Old February 19, 2017, 13:16   #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Philip View Post
I like most of the newest version, though I think Rogues should get magical trap detection at about the same time Mages do, and Priests should not get it ever, in order to make classes more consistent with their strengths (Rogues, sneaking around with magic assistance, Mages, dungeon control, Priests, healing and healing and also healing). It really bothers me that Priests are miles better at detection than Mages are. Priests get Detection, which shaves off several turns at every detection and allows you to see everything at once. Priests get magic mapping, which is just plain amazing. Priests eventually even get Clairvoyance. For a field where Priests are terrible early on, and Mages specialize in, that feels wrong.
Possibly you're right. The current plan is for classes to get serious examination for 4.2 (and we're really not short of changes already for 4.1), so for now I'm inclined to keep fairly close to the status quo.
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Old February 21, 2017, 12:42   #48
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I think you will find that the simplest and best way to deal with traps is to remove them. They are static, rather unthreatening features. The interaction with detection effects is certainly a concern, but not really the key problem with them. They penalize movement in a game where movement is already best avoided. More than just telling the player to take as few moves as possible to avoid waking up monsters, traps further tell the player to remember what tiles he has traversed so that he runs less risk in backtracking after picking things up or killing monsters. If you aren't doing this when you play, it is only because you know traps pose no real threat anyway.

The general question of detection in angband isn't just about tedium, though. One might ask what the function of walls is in a game where in principle you can know where everything is all the time in spite of them. Why bother with mechanics like light? Why compute fields of view at all? You can see everything without light or even line of sight! That old standard we all love to know, The Legend of Zelda, gives approximately the same level of player knowledge available in angband at the cost of constant vigilance and key mashing completely for free and there does not appear to be any price in terms of balance, flavor, or style.
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Old February 21, 2017, 18:11   #49
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OK, I've had a good long think about this, and considered all the comments that have been made. A couple of philosophical points first:
  • The current, 4.0.5, gameplay boils down (with some exceptions in the early game) to "everyone has magical trap detection, and everyone uses it all the time, unless they forget to".
I don't agree with that assessment. Take these two scenarios:

1) You just used your last teleport option to get out of a losing battle, only to land a few squares away from an angry Dracolich in an unexplored (and therefore undetected) part of the level. You can use the next turn to either turn into a corner and get out of its sight, or to cast Detect Trap and risk it breathing onto you. What would you do?

Well, duh. Of course you turn the corner, and accept the fact that a trap may be there--the probability that there is a trap and it would kill you is a lot smaller than that of the Dracolich unloading nether onto you in the next turn.

Notice that there is no "forgetting" in this scenario--the only mistake I had made was being too feisty against a powerful enemy in the previous battle, without exploring and clearing out the level first. The game must punish such arrogance, and traps are effective mechanisms for that.

2) Some monsters, like Saruman, lay traps around you. The whole point of that attack is to make you waste your time with detection and/or disarming, and it is effective: I've fallen through trap doors more than once because I stupidly decided to pursue a dying Saruman without checking for traps. Again, this is exactly the type of penalty that the game should enforce.


For both 1) and 2), your proposal would make traps inconsequential.
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Old February 21, 2017, 20:10   #50
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Quote:
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I don't agree with that assessment. Take these two scenarios:

1) You just used your last teleport option to get out of a losing battle, only to land a few squares away from an angry Dracolich in an unexplored (and therefore undetected) part of the level. You can use the next turn to either turn into a corner and get out of its sight, or to cast Detect Trap and risk it breathing onto you. What would you do?

Well, duh. Of course you turn the corner, and accept the fact that a trap may be there--the probability that there is a trap and it would kill you is a lot smaller than that of the Dracolich unloading nether onto you in the next turn.

Notice that there is no "forgetting" in this scenario--the only mistake I had made was being too feisty against a powerful enemy in the previous battle, without exploring and clearing out the level first. The game must punish such arrogance, and traps are effective mechanisms for that.

2) Some monsters, like Saruman, lay traps around you. The whole point of that attack is to make you waste your time with detection and/or disarming, and it is effective: I've fallen through trap doors more than once because I stupidly decided to pursue a dying Saruman without checking for traps. Again, this is exactly the type of penalty that the game should enforce.


For both 1) and 2), your proposal would make traps inconsequential.
OK, that was a slight exaggeration on my part. On the other hand, it was a slight exaggeration on your part that the proposal renders traps inconsequential, because it includes retaining some invisible traps. So we're even

The "create traps" spell is a good point, and one that hasn't got enough consideration in this discussion. That is a genuine case where the invisibility of traps adds directly to their gameplay value in an obvious way.

One of the things I am envisaging with this system is that there is a bit more variation among traps. For example, takkaria mentioned webs - you could have a web as in FAangband, which is always visible, can always be cleared in a single turn, but can't be escaped without clearing it. So if Saruman creates traps, there could be a combination of visible and invisible traps appear, and the player still has interesting choices to make.
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