Angband Forums blow calculations in V
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July 20, 2018, 15:08   #1
wobbly
Prophet

Join Date: May 2012
Posts: 2,615
blow calculations in V

Quote:
 Originally Posted by wobbly Ok so currently it's kinda adjusted str * class / weight across 12 bands of dex with moving a dex band shifting you up 1 str category. the numbers hold along a diagonal in the table. Close to anyway Edit: Ok I get what that is trying to do now. I'll shuffle it off to it's own thread once I've looked at it a bit more. Edit: Wow. That table is starting to make a huge amount of sense for a game with high str to dex variance (like say dice rolled stats) & an integer no. of blows.
For a quick & dirty look at what I mean do this:

Start a bunch of standard roller half-troll warriors.
Inspect a bunch of weapons looking at the damage.
Adjust the numbers removing the partial blow

 July 20, 2018, 18:12 #2 wobbly Prophet   Join Date: May 2012 Location: Adelaide, Australia Posts: 2,615 You see what that blows table is designed for is not min. max. ed stats. With a wider spread of str and dex on warriors different weapons hit different sweet spots. At min/max you hit the daggers sweet spot hard. As you bring the blow numbers lower (non-min maxed) the multiplication on +dam becomes lower. For that table to create the same effect in modern V, class/race bonuses would have to mimic the old variance between 2 3d6 dice rolls.
 July 20, 2018, 18:14 #3 Gwarl Knight   Join Date: Jan 2017 Posts: 955 Nice, I always thought the blows/round was out of line. redoing races and classes is the perfect excuse to apply sense-making boni
 July 22, 2018, 10:11 #4 wobbly Prophet   Join Date: May 2012 Location: Adelaide, Australia Posts: 2,615 Ok been throwing numbers in & I quite like the table just not the numbers. It's comparing bands of dex vs str. weight. That means you can change parts of the range without mucking up the parts of the range you want to keep. Why 30 min-weight for warriors? At 70 anything lighter then a shortsword is treated as 7lbs. A bit faster, not a lot. Why so low a mult for priests/mages? If you bump that up with the hybrids the str or dex penalties from the class will still make them gain slowly. The dex/weight ratio is hidden in the str calcs, but you can control that ratio along the diagonals. Why is this never used till the end of the table? Why so many partials between 3 & 4, why not more between 1 & 1.5 blows? Why no dex range at 14 where a dwarf priest could reasonably get 1.1 blows at lvl 1? Why can non-warriors split blows? Giving paladins single combat spell seems an opportunity to remove that toy and let the warrior shine. I'll spend sometime on it and make a saner version and if anyone is interested they can take a look.
 July 22, 2018, 11:00 #5 wobbly Prophet   Join Date: May 2012 Location: Adelaide, Australia Posts: 2,615 Adding a few thoughts: Why should anything be faster then a rapier? I'm not convinced you can knife-fight faster then a fencer, rapier has reach for starters. Frog has faster blows for no-shield with a 2-hander. I can probably just get it to count shield or half shield weight. With 7lb min. that leaves rooms for light shields on the lightest weapons. I can also drop some weapon weight if it counts shields. Mages probably best to cover heavy weapons via current encumbrance calc.
July 22, 2018, 11:06   #6
Carnivean
Knight

Join Date: Sep 2013
Posts: 527
Quote:
 Originally Posted by wobbly Adding a few thoughts: Why should anything be faster then a rapier? I'm not convinced you can knife-fight faster then a fencer, rapier has reach for starters.
You can. They do weapons tests on Forged In Fire the tv show and the weight of the weapon and the length do make a significant difference in the speed of attacks. Even a sabre, which is designed to have quick, flick-y strikes, is a fair bit slower than a knife.

July 22, 2018, 11:10   #7
wobbly
Prophet

Join Date: May 2012
Posts: 2,615
Quote:
 Originally Posted by Carnivean You can. They do weapons tests on Forged In Fire the tv show and the weight of the weapon and the length do make a significant difference in the speed of attacks. Even a sabre, which is designed to have quick, flick-y strikes, is a fair bit slower than a knife.
In terms of hitting something while it just takes it? Or are we including footwork etc.

What if I give the rogue faster dagger speeds? You can do this without outpacing warriors if the ratio between min. and mult is right. That's just changing class.txt

Last edited by wobbly; July 22, 2018 at 11:18.

July 22, 2018, 11:36   #8
Carnivean
Knight

Join Date: Sep 2013
Posts: 527
Quote:
 Originally Posted by wobbly In terms of hitting something while it just takes it? Or are we including footwork etc.
Footwork wouldn't change much with the lighter weapons, but the time to move the blade with your arm, torso and hand does. With really small blades you don't need to swing through to deal the damage, so light flicks will work. Much heavier weapons would need different footwork. Getting into the nitty-gritty of it requires a fairly complex algorithm, which is why V, O and V4 have different takes on it. I think V4 had the best one, but I haven't done a lot of studying of the variants. Dumbing it down to light = fast and heavy = slow doesn't ruin the experience and makes it simple.

One thing that has always bugged me is how a warrior can deal multiple blows with a lance, but thinking too much about that kind of thing can be diving down the rabbit hole.

I did also learn that the type of knife "main gauche" pretty much just means left handed knife, ie the kind of knife that you wield with your left hand while you wield a sword with your right hand. Half defensive and half attacking. An example is the sword-breaker. Designed to catch enemy blades, entangle them or break them, while also being able to stab with the dagger point or slash with the other side of the blade.

 July 22, 2018, 11:37 #9 wobbly Prophet   Join Date: May 2012 Location: Adelaide, Australia Posts: 2,615 Ok the table for all it's unreadability is pretty good for doing stuff. For instance I suspect I can get it to do a fencer by cutting off the top of the str range on a cloned fighter or rogue and then fiddling with crits so it does accuracy more and weight less. Would have to try to know what that really does.
July 22, 2018, 11:46   #10
Carnivean
Knight

Join Date: Sep 2013
Posts: 527
Quote:
 Originally Posted by wobbly Ok the table for all it's unreadability is pretty good for doing stuff. For instance I suspect I can get it to do a fencer by cutting off the top of the str range on a cloned fighter or rogue and then fiddling with crits so it does accuracy more and weight less. Would have to try to know what that really does.
I don't know the details of the table, but would it be possible to create groups of weapons that scale differently?

Slashers are smaller, faster blades and get lots of blows, scale with dex and don't care much for strength, and struggle to get criticals. Daggers, rapiers and sabres.

Stabbers scale with dex more than str, but get reasonable critical strikes. Spears mostly, but also lancers. Obviously heavy stabbers get good one hit numbers, but struggle to get multiple blows.

Carvers are heavier blades and can deal heavier strikes, scale with both dex and str vs weight and get more criticals. Long, broad and the huge swords.

Bashers scale more with str than dex and get the most criticals.

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