Angband.oook.cz
Angband.oook.cz
AboutVariantsLadderForumCompetitionComicScreenshotsFunniesLinks

Go Back   Angband Forums > Angband > Sil

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old August 9, 2017, 02:00   #11
Patashu
Knight
 
Patashu's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 523
Patashu is on a distinguished road
Quote:
Originally Posted by taptap View Post
Remove momentum. Restore the glory of great axes and greatswords! I don't understand why people want to streamline everything else out of existence (moving Sil ever more to a single "best practice" build), but don't want to remove the ability that broke things in the first place.

If Momentum is removed, will we get Stun back?
__________________
My Chiptune music, made in Famitracker: http://soundcloud.com/patashu
Patashu is offline   Reply With Quote
Old August 9, 2017, 03:58   #12
ripforareason
Apprentice
 
Join Date: Dec 2016
Posts: 73
ripforareason is on a distinguished road
Quote:
Originally Posted by taptap View Post
Remove momentum. Restore the glory of great axes and greatswords! I don't understand why people want to streamline everything else out of existence (moving Sil ever more to a single "best practice" build), but don't want to remove the ability that broke things in the first place.
Not sure this would really change that much. It would just shift the meta-game from light weapons like mithril longswords to bastard swords since they're strictly better than greatswords, and you can often utilize all your strength points with rapid attack. the problem is more "greatswords being strictly worse than bastard swords in most cases", the exception is basically having Saithnar or Calris but then you also have Anglachel and Anguirel which are better since Saithnar doesn't have free action any more and walking around with Calris makes me feel insecure.

On top of this, axes are IMO almost strictly worse than swords even if you are a Naugrim.

edit: also, there are a whole lot of good swords in the game. If I look at recent-ish morgues that got reasonably far in the game, I see a whole lot of Glamdring, Delmereth, Anglachel, Anguirel, etc., and not really a whole lot of generic ego weapons.

Last edited by ripforareason; August 9, 2017 at 04:04.
ripforareason is offline   Reply With Quote
Old August 9, 2017, 09:36   #13
taptap
Knight
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 710
taptap is on a distinguished road
1) Remove momentum.
2) Remove damage rings. (Usually better than somewhat similar strength rings.)
3) Add a no regeneration mode. (For stealthy chars to play around in.)

There are two things breaking the logic of strength and sufficient weight for larger dice, one is momentum, the other is damage rings. Without them you had a clear choice: increase the size of your dice or increase the number of your dice. And there also was the question how to leverage peak strength when buffed, which tends to be 4 points higher still.

When an ability looks like an autopick to you, yes you ripforareason , then it just might be too good, especially if it knocks out a whole lot of gameplay as irrelevant. (And looking at the winner ability statistics momentum is one of the most common picks even though only introduced later.)

Now, I don't particularly care about "current meta" "best practice" builds. The one thing that kept Sil fresh enough for me to return now and then is the possibility to win in many different ways. I believe this was a design choice. What I see in some proposals in this thread is streamlining into one or two optimal brawler builds while removing non-optimal but previously viable options.
taptap is offline   Reply With Quote
Old August 9, 2017, 10:42   #14
wobbly
Veteran
 
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Adelaide, Australia
Posts: 1,131
wobbly is on a distinguished road
I'm going to 2nd what taptap is saying. Damage rings are an automatic pick, I'm always going to wear 2 to fight Morgoth & when you add in momentum shortswords & deathblades reach d14/d15 which melts Morgoth. I'd also consider making Finrod rarer or weaker, so the choice isn't so often Finrod or clearly inferior boots.

Disagree with removing focus. As ripforareason has said he always takes it in mpa-sil. It's too good if you're not paying extra. Plus focus is part of builds like polearms or assasination and such.
wobbly is offline   Reply With Quote
Old August 9, 2017, 10:50   #15
wobbly
Veteran
 
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Adelaide, Australia
Posts: 1,131
wobbly is on a distinguished road
Removing prerequisites on songs might be good, it's incredibly annoying having to take slaying or aule on a pacifist if you want sharpness for the crown. Also while I like Elbereth it would be nice to take freedom on a non-elbereth singer.
wobbly is offline   Reply With Quote
Old August 9, 2017, 14:52   #16
debo
Veteran
 
debo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: Toronto, Canada
Posts: 2,332
debo is on a distinguished road
I don't mind certain weapons being clearly superior to others, but I really dislike momentum. As I've said before, I'd like for artefact probabilities to be much flatter and decoupled from base item type, since the artefacts themselves are often quite different than the base type and provide a lot of variety.
__________________
Glaurung, Father of the Dragons says, 'You cannot avoid the ballyhack.'
debo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old August 9, 2017, 16:38   #17
Serephina
Rookie
 
Join Date: Dec 2014
Posts: 23
Serephina is on a distinguished road
Extending what debo said about artifact generation properties, getting your hands on the less common artifacts also allows for more kooky builds which in turns makes less common skills better picks.

Someone mentioned above about not having forges count for the hidden turn counter unless seen by the player; this is also a great idea for artifacts. I can't really treat the dungeon as infinite when I feel that there's a strong, hidden incentive to fully clear levels.

Possibly an even better way (for forges, at least) is to just guarantee forges at X, Y, and Z feet and mention it explicitly in the manual, and anything further is the low% random generation's. Or hey! Just wave a magic wand and fix forging's U-shaped power curve, easy!
Serephina is offline   Reply With Quote
Old August 9, 2017, 23:37   #18
ripforareason
Apprentice
 
Join Date: Dec 2016
Posts: 73
ripforareason is on a distinguished road
I don't know, just because something is powerful doesn't mean it's bad and needs removal. At least Concentrate can bring up interesting combats if you are fighting more than one enemy at once. I'm still not really sure how good it is, since a lot of things can break it as of right now.

Flanking is way more OP than momentum or mpa-sil Concentrate, imo, but having things like Flanking, ZoC etc. make Sil combat fun and not like other roguelikes where one camps in a corridor.

With Momentum, I've never really felt compelled to take it before 950-1000'. It's rare for me to go over 4 Strength, and if I am in a fight where I really want to use a strength potion, often times it's a unique enemy like a balrog or something, which leads me to switch to a greatsword or bastard sword instead. I've only really been impressed with it when I have a deathblade and a damage ring or two. Maybe deathblades are more of a problem than momentum, since you can often find one in the (+2-4, 1d9) range, whereas shortswords are closer to (+0-1, 1d7).
ripforareason is offline   Reply With Quote
Old September 7, 2017, 18:28   #19
bagori nd
Apprentice
 
Join Date: Apr 2014
Posts: 56
bagori nd is on a distinguished road
Quote:
Originally Posted by taptap View Post
1) Remove momentum.
2) Remove damage rings. (Usually better than somewhat similar strength rings.)
3) Add a no regeneration mode. (For stealthy chars to play around in.)
Thirded, re: removing damage rings. In addition to being bad for gameplay, I find them really immersion-breaking (which matters in Sil)--they differ from Strength rings only in virtue of quasi-metagame considerations, and it's hard to envision how they work.

I'm not sure about removing momentum, though. Much of the reason it's so impactful imo is that it's a Strength prerequisite; if you want Strength and don't want Knock-Back (both true of lots of players), there's effectively no cost to taking it. Without damage rings, it's not obvious that it would be as big a problem as it is; though it might still be best to remove it, I'd suggest first trying one or both of the following:

(a) slightly nerf momentum such that it increases the Str limit to 2 * weight - 1 (and hence only benefits weapons that weigh at least 1.5 lb.), and/or
(b) remove or revise the prerequisites for the Strength ability.
bagori nd is offline   Reply With Quote
Old September 9, 2017, 01:46   #20
bron
Swordsman
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Saratoga, California (in the midst of Silicon Valley)
Posts: 426
bron is on a distinguished road
Don't know about Momentum ... if people think it needs to be removed or at least nerfed, I'd say it should be changed to just allow you to add one extra strength, e.g., 4 str on a 3 lb. sword. Just because that is simple and easy to understand.

I think Heavy Armour Use should be buffed to also reduce the Evasion penalty of your body armor, based on your strength. Say, half your strength, rounded up. We might see strong characters use Hauberk's more often.

Resist Fear needs to go in the Will tree, somewhere, somehow.

Personally I find Smithing to be fun and interesting, but seems like it rarely pays off. I'd suggest two things to re-balance this: make it easier to smith good stuff, and make the stuff you find lying around be worse. Thus: (1) remove the "Artistry" ability, and the need for it: you can make Fine weapons and armour if you have enough skill, without needing an extra Ability. (2) No "double-fine" items in the dungeon. If you want a sword with both a plus to hit and an extra damage side, you have to make it yourself.
bron is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
1.3 Wishlist Thread Infinitum Sil 15 February 9, 2015 23:06
Non-gameplay Wishlist Nick Development 7 April 7, 2011 03:41
Modernization wishlist Donald Jonker Vanilla 15 February 10, 2010 01:26
less radical wishlist PowerDiver Vanilla 35 February 9, 2010 18:07
Wishlist and bug Lord Tom Vanilla 2 December 5, 2009 22:24


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 10:56.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.