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Old July 5, 2017, 01:04   #11
thomasd3
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In a way it belongs to another era; as far as I recall, stories with elves, etc started to appear in the 1600s, usually based on local folklore and legends.

What Tolkien really did, and, in another style Lovecraft did something similar, was to format all the bits and pieces into a coherent universe.

This made it accessible to people, in general.

When Gary Gygax made AD&D, he did something very similar: he took bits and pieces of lore and organized and classified everything so the universe was clear, organized and you could understand where everything stood.

But the Silmarillion is more like ideas put together, it is not written in a way that is digestible unless you're really invested in it. To me it seems like dumping on paper everything he had in his mind, but without preparing it for the public. The writing style is also really not helping at all.
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Old July 5, 2017, 02:16   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thomasd3 View Post
But the Silmarillion is more like ideas put together, it is not written in a way that is digestible unless you're really invested in it.
For the sufficiently invested, I recommend (after a couple of readthroughs of The Silmarillion) the full 12 volumes of The History of Middle Earth. This gives a nice thorough perspective of the legends and how they evolved over the 50+ years JRRT was working on them.

Any questions, just ask
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Old July 5, 2017, 02:19   #13
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once we have a good thread for the story line, that knowledge will come very handy!
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Old July 5, 2017, 10:39   #14
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Fighting against the enemy (just you on your own or an army) and trying to conquer them in each region then investing in that region to protect it (like you said) sounds very good

Here are some ideas

If you are allied with Morgoth, your fortress is going to look grim, built for holding slaves, loot, breeding armies as well as forging weapons eg Utumno

If your main allies are Elves, you fortress is going to be well balanced between beautiful and strong for example Gondolin or Nargothrond (please incude these if you can)

If your main allies are Men, I'm not too sure maybe something like Minas Tirith that can hold Common folk, wealth and a well rounded army

If your main allies are Dwarves, you are going to benefit greatly from building in a mountain, your fortress is going to be very stron, built for facilitating mining, loot storage and protection. The best forges, weapons and armour will be found here

Then there are the builders, you can fund your builder's travelling funds, so your builder can travel the world, learn building techniques and templates (the layout) for fortresses. Your builders travels can take anything for hundreds to thousands of turns depending on how far it is

Now for another idea, Dreams. These are rare. You can get dreams of say a distant friendly fort under attack, this will give you a small amount of time to save the fort, or you can get a dream of a fort that does not yet exist, you can tell your builder of the fort and he will "learn" the fearures of that fort, eg floodable streets that will only flood the street and nothing else. If you are a smith you will very rarely dream of making a legendary craft and because of this you will learn the method of making that craft though you may not have the will, strength or stamina to make it yet

Lastly you should use everthing from Sil because it is so well done, but add A LOT to it because there is so much more that can be done with it

Is there anything you want to know from a lore point of view?

Also

When will you be starting this, and is this still going to be multiplayer?, I would love it if it was singleplayer because you are forging your own world the way you want it

Last edited by Gothmog; July 5, 2017 at 11:03.
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Old July 5, 2017, 14:17   #15
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Originally Posted by Pete Mack View Post
Unfortunately the lore is mostly in Silmarillion. I say unfortunately, because that is a very inaccessible book. (I never finished it.)
Well fortunately I have, so we shouldn't have any problems with the lore
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Old July 5, 2017, 14:17   #16
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For the gameplay itself, I see pretty much SIL as the base, but I would add a few things:

- destructible walls
- possibility to drop traps on the ground
- merchants in safe areas
- a level of water per cell which would affect speed and a variety of other things
- the ability to have fire; either limited in time as fallout from an explosion, or spreading if material allows it. This would affect enemies as well.
- an indicator when you hear enemy sound
- independent enemy AI, where creatures may kill each other; this could be very useful to try and get followed by an enemy just to bring it to his own enemy, etc.
- adding lock picks
- I'm on the fence about crafting
- add optional indicators that shows the chances of success in a fight (will be useful for debugging, not sure about the final game)
- be able to drop a note in that cave for future adventurers of the same faction
- weapons and armors wearing out so that they require repairs to not lose them
- showing clearly the differences between 2 pieces of equipment.

this will force graphic tiles instead of text since more information needs to be conveyed, but I am planning to keep it very basic visually.

As far as muti vs. single, I think it covers both:

The world will be automatically generated; since it only takes a seed and a few parameters per cave we can have a world larger that your lifespan could handle.
My idea is to have a central zone of activity which is actively maintained, balanced, etc but if a player wants to travel to a remote area to make his own fiefdom and adventure there, it is not a problem; this can be handled at the start of the game; It is possible that other players reach that area through adventure, but with the mechanics I have in mind, it would take a considerable amount of time until it has a chance to happen; then you can always set defenses there as well.

So we really have 2 main elements:
- a dynamic world map with the lore, strategical decisions to make that will affect the world in general
- cities, caves, castles, dungeons similar to SIL, but with improvements that are the areas to visit from the main map.

From the lore perspective, we need to figure out 'who' you are, and what your main motivation is; saving (the world, someone? rescuing? looting? etc
what makes the different forces in the world and what they're trying to do as well.
it would make sense that players would be taking opposite sides.
if a player dies in a cave, etc his property will be converted to value that the factions owning the area will be able to spend; so maybe you find that your calling in life is to fortify lines, or to organize economics to make prevent other players from taking an area, etc.
you don't necessarily have to be the good guy here, but the lore should explain each point of view so you'd feel compelled to belong in one place or another.
a bit like how Ultima IV did it (or was it the III?) where you go to a gypsy and she's doing some tarot reading; based on your choices, it determines where you'll belong; something like that can be a playful way to make you start in different scenarios so that you fight for good, for bad, or just ignore everything and try to loot anything you can or any other thing we can think about
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Old July 5, 2017, 14:24   #17
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I'm staying firm to my belief that this game should be singleplayer, it would make each world unique and you can interact with "heros" (Hurin, Turin etc) that may be killed by other players leaving you no chance to interact with them, you should also be able to recruit these heroes to your cause

Also crafting should DEFINITELY be a feature
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Old July 5, 2017, 14:46   #18
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Actually single vs multi is not very relevant: if you start the game on a single instance, you're essentially the only human player in the world.

As a first step, I'll make a tool that will generate small maps.
I call a 'small map' anything from a castle, city, dungeon, cave, etc. Anything that has a layout with objects, etc and can be explored.
In contrast to the big map that is the world itself, etc.

I'll write something that takes a file with settings, etc and outputs a map in text; so we can see what makes sense and what doesn't and iterate until we get a satisfactory solution.
The first focus will be really on layout: walls and empty spaces, then we can add stuff.
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Old July 5, 2017, 14:47   #19
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Ok so the different sides can be a bit complicated but I'll give it a shot

Elves - there is a bit of strife between some houses but maybe the "types" could be Elves of Gondolin, specialise in stealth/hunting and could be effective against Orcs and Trolls and another interesting "type" of Elf could be "of the grinding ice" , highly resistant to cold and gets hungry very slowly, high strength and stamina. Another "type" of Elf could be a Dark Eld, accustomed to the being in not well lit areas they would have high perception and high stealth

The "types" of Elves could be like houses so you could have the option to pick eother a house or type same will go with Orcs, Balrogs, Trolls, Dwarves and Men (maybe Werewolves) which I will cover in a while
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Old July 5, 2017, 15:00   #20
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once we have all the main races in place, we have a couple options to build the history of the world since the main story needs a background, or we can do like dwarf fortress where they build a rather complex history every start you start the new world
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