Angrist: how exactly does sharpness work!

[xorzac]

My first time getting a sharp weapon, ever, in this game (must be super rare, given all the chars I've slaughtered getting to 600 ft or so).

It's only 1d5, which is very weak. Does it ignore the armor protection? Reduce it by x%?

It's the perfect weapon for my current build (super high crit machine). But I need to make sure it's better than say a mithril LS (2d6, 2.1 lb), or a deathblade (1d9, 1.2 lb).

[Scatha]

Normal sharp weapons halve protection. Angrist is unique in ignoring it completely.

I'd expect it to be your best weapon against some but not all enemies. It could also be effective with rapid attack or in the off-hand.

[xorzac]

On a related note, subtlety does not seem worth it compared to two handed fighting.

If I hit +12 over with angrist and sub, I get 4d5.

With a 2nd weapon I get 2d5 (-3 pen) plus the second weapon. If the example was 15, it'd be 3d5 plus 2nd.

If I do +24, it's 7d5 vs. 4d5 plus 2nd.

I realize rapid attack can help, but it works with two handed too (3 attacks total).

Am I missing something?

[xorzac]

Well if it ignores, then if it lands it will do multiples of 1d5 (I have yet to add momentum). Momentum would make it 1d6.

I'm now trying to decide as above between 2 handed and subtlety. I don't have a good 2nd weapon as of yet for it.

Oh, above forgot to subtract str penalty! Angrist obviously would not be off hand. But say LS (2d6 after penalty). That would hardly do squat though without crits. Tough decision!

I have 3 str, and am using that to calc.

Add: I did some math on my sh SW 1d8. If that is off hand, then against 5 armor it's fairly even, though 2 hd pulls away at high crits. Less than that two hand wins, more sub wins.

This does not take into account any abilities a second weapon may have (my ego weapon drops have sucked hard this round). I don't see how sub is good except against decent armor enemies.

Edit: I screwed up the calcs because I figured angrist weight wrong.

2nd edit: it just dawned on me that angrist is a perfect off hand because it has no str penalty. Though rapid attack same way - no penalty to str.

Any advice?

[taptap]

Not that you need advice... but, you are missing armor in your initial calculation (guess because you started thinking about it with Angrist), in general two-weaponing has armor subtracted from each damage roll, the one big subtle hit with multiple crits only once. And in late game you can take down non-armored opponents with any build - the only problem are (magic/breath and) armored opponents most of all big V. (Reminder that both Song of Sharpness and Woven Themes were nerfed in later versions of Sil while V was buffed.)

Also, your comparisons with Angrist: against truly unarmored opponents even a plain shortsword is better. (1d8 / +5.5 > 1d5 / +4.5) Now in the throneroom you are usually buffed, singing Song of Slaying or get another bonus (concentration). So you are more likely fighting at +50 than +30. If you think exclusively about the bonus damage per additional point of melee, Angrist is not standing out as a particularly good weapon for subtlety, in fact it is not better than a 2lb longsword in bonus damage and worse when used with only finesse. (It is still a very good weapon due to the huge flat bonus equal to enemy armor you receive, but just not a good weapon to decide whether subtlety is viable.)

Precision benefit (w/ subtlety):

Longsword (2lb): 1d7 / +6 (=2/3)
Angrist: 1d5 / +4.5 (=2/3)
Shortsword (1d7, 1.5lb): 1d8 / +5.5 (=9/11)
Galadriel (1d8, 2lb): 1d10 / 6 (=11/12)
Custom Shortsword (1d8, 1lb): 1d9 / +5 (=1)
Deathblade (1d9, 2lb): 1d11 / +6 (=1) (Deathblades are really that good!)

Precision benefit (only finesse):

Angrist: 1d5 / +6.5 (=6/13)
Longsword: 1d7 / +8 (=1/2)
Shortsword: 1d8 / +7.5 (=3/5)
Galadriel: 1d10 / +8 (=11/16)
Custom Shortsword: 1d9 / +7 (=5/7)
Deathblade: 1d11 / +8 (=3/4)
Spear (2handed, 3 STR): 1d14 / 9 (=5/6)

Fwiw, in the no-sharpness kills of Morgoth none used two-weaponing, while both heavy weapon (with extreme strength), medium blunt weapons (with momentum) and light weapons (with critical hits) have happened afair.

[xorzac]

Actually, my first morgoth kill was 2 weapons no sharpness (I got it after killing him for the crown).

I have a deathblade now, have not tried it.

I did add assassination and cruel blow, which makes higher critical more useful. It is so much fun doing this:

You stealthily attack a young cold drake!!!!!!!!! (Yes, that is 9 of them)

I still seem to get lots of ! on the second attack (normal is 1 to 5).

I also have momentum now, which helps. Serpents die in 1 or at most 2 swings, super nice.


Your table is nice, but it doesn't factor armor.

If at +50, and morgoth is +20(6d4) in my version, then figure +30 and average 15 def.

Angrist would be 3.5/4.5, avg. of a 7 crit. So 3.5 * 8 is 28.

Deathblade 1d13 (with mom) would be 7/6, avg. of a 5 crit. So 7 * 6 is 42 - 15 is 27.

Two handed:

Deathblade plus angrist.

Deathblade 1d13 7/8, avg. of a 3.75 crit. So 7 * 4.75 is 33 - 15 is 18.
Angrist 1d6, 3.5/6.5, avg. of a 4 crit (+27). So 3.5 * 5 is 17.5.

Total 35.5.

With rapid attack (assuming sub only on 1st):

Angrist would be 3.5 * 7 is 24.5 + 3.5 * 5.5 is 42.5.

Deathblade would be 1d10, so 5.5/8. 5.5 * 4.3 is 24 - 15 is 9. 9 * 2 makes 18. Plus angrist off makes 35.5.

Spear would be 1d15 (4 str I have), so 8/9. Avg. of a 3.3 crit. So 8 * 4.3 is 34- 15 is 19.


Seems to me that angrist rapid wins easily, unless I screwed my math up (I had to redo it 3 times).

Unless you did angrist main deathblade off, then that barely wins, I think.


I did go with sub (long before I found the deathblade), and so far I like it. As I said, 9! is so much fun.

[xorzac]

And when Prince of kitty cats dies in 2 rounds (3 swings), you must be doing something right.

[taptap]

Well, I was saying Angrist gains less from precision than other weapons so there must be a point where other weapons become better than Angrist. That point is higher the higher the enemy armor is, but should nonetheless be in reach in the final fights. (As it is in your plain Angrist vs. Deathblade comparison - any melee bonus on the deathblade would tip it into its favour. And while in rage building the slaying bonus you only have a single attack per enemy anyway as far as I remember.)

I miss a line for rapid attack deathblade and afaik subtlety works on both attacks. In optimal conditions (strength potion so you don't lose most of the rapid attack benefit) 1d13/+6 w. average 4.5 crits = 5.5*7*2 - 15*2 = 47 vs. 1d6/+4.5 w. average 6 crits = 7*3.5*2 = 49 - so fairly close to each other. Any bonus to melee (fairly common in deathblades) not present in Angrist, slaying bonus peaking any higher or any benefit from a minor theme Song of Sharpness could tip the balance in favour of the deathblade.

My easiest time in the throneroom was once with a deathblade. I even forgot to turn on Rapid Attack (although I sang Sharpness 1st + Slaying 2nd).

[xorzac]

Then you have to factor any rings of damage (which I just found 1). That helps angrist more than deathblade.

And again, my first kill had 2 weapons no sharpness. Dramborleg and a sceptre of fire. Certainly far from optimal choices! That was before I knew how crits really worked.

[wobbly]

Originally Posted by taptap

Fwiw, in the no-sharpness kills of Morgoth none used two-weaponing, while both heavy weapon (with extreme strength), medium blunt weapons (with momentum) and light weapons (with critical hits) have happened afair.

While I did have song of sharpness for my 2 weapon kill I doubt it's necessary for a strong elf. At str 9 with momentum a sword like orcrist is 2d11 in the off-hand, enough criticals & you punch through hard.

I suspect subtlety only beats 2 weapons if you're assasinating or got cruel blow or lack the str to hit hard with the offhand. With cruel blow it's not a straight damage calculation, as enough criticals is going to leave everything helpless to strike back.