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Old September 7, 2018, 17:58   #11
Sky
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Wait until you try Tetris ... boy. TALK ABOUT BAD WRITING.
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Old September 7, 2018, 19:17   #12
Derakon
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sky View Post
Wait until you try Tetris ... boy. TALK ABOUT BAD WRITING.
I know you meant this as a joke, but the writing in Tetris is perfectly suited to the kind of game it is. It's a pure puzzle game, with no writing. Imagine how terrible it would be if someone tried to shoehorn an epic fantasy plot onto Tetris.
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Old September 7, 2018, 19:25   #13
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Indeed, the ability to create additional challenges is a good way to keep the game at an optimal level of difficulty and emotional engagement for experienced players. Current V is good at this.
Yes, I make the game more challenging by making sure I've killed every unique before the endgame. I also tend to fully explore levels. Plus, I try to kill every monster at least once, including the really tough ones like Great Wyrms, bronze/bone golems, black reavers, etc.

Last edited by mrfy; September 8, 2018 at 00:01.
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Old September 7, 2018, 23:26   #14
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First, that was an excellent OP. It raises a great many questions which IMHO go well beyond Angband to other games, computer based and not - I found it particularly interesting to think about sport in this framework (Is cricket a game or a sport? Discuss.).

People talk about the meta-game a lot in multi-player games, but this is my first encounter with meta-narrative, and I find it a very compelling concept. One piece I would like to highlight:

Quote:
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Continued maintenance is not only good because it makes the game better, but because the game is part of the meta-narrative, so any changes to it make the meta-narrative more interesting.
Takkaria has argued in the past that the game needs to change and evolve or it dies. This is precisely in accord with that, and explains why. I think people (including me) tend to think that there is one golden, desirable state of the game, perhaps never achievable, but always to be aimed at. I am now thinking that is wrong for at least two reasons:
  1. Need for a living meta-narrative;
  2. The fact that (as shown by the comments on this thread) people get such different things out of the game.

Excellent discussion. This forum never ceases to amaze me
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Old September 8, 2018, 10:51   #15
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For me the game needs to be engaging, that can be difficulty but doesn't have to be. Half the time it's the crazy equipment puzzle PCB-likes have that make it interesting or the way things get very busy in the fights.
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Old September 8, 2018, 21:22   #16
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total nonsense

Philip and Nick => I don't want to be insulting, but i consider practically all you wrote as total nonsense.

No surprise, you are ruining the game.

The way the game should be, is derived from the goals of the players.

For a give set of goals there is a perfect condition available that the game can reach (and then shouldn't be touched anymore, since any more modifications would reduce the perfect goal matching).
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Old September 8, 2018, 23:11   #17
Pete Mack
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Tibarius--I have no idea what you are talking about. There is no 'perfect condition', because players learn to exploit weaknesses in any game. Yet if you keep 'patching' those holes, you end up with a game that is grindish, and unfriendly to newbies. When is the last time you played Angband? What variant did you play--and are you still playing 3.0.x?
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Old September 9, 2018, 06:36   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tibarius View Post
Philip and Nick => I don't want to be insulting, but i consider practically all you wrote as total nonsense.

No surprise, you are ruining the game.

The way the game should be, is derived from the goals of the players.

For a give set of goals there is a perfect condition available that the game can reach (and then shouldn't be touched anymore, since any more modifications would reduce the perfect goal matching).
Wow, your rude rant really angered me.

First of all, you've already opened one shitty thread, so why are you shitting up this one now?

Second of all, the way the game should be is derived from the goals of the developers, who may or may not care about "the players"; and even if they care about some players, they don't necessarily care about others; especially upgrateful, stupid and rude people like you.
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Old September 9, 2018, 08:10   #19
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The only perfect state is death and even the dead rot.
A game that changes creates new challenges, you can play it without playing the "same old game". It's harder to just roll out perfect winning plan "A". Your perfect game has a perfect solution you see? It achieves perfect boredom.
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Old September 9, 2018, 08:56   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tibarius View Post
Philip and Nick => I don't want to be insulting, but i consider practically all you wrote as total nonsense.

No surprise, you are ruining the game.

The way the game should be, is derived from the goals of the players.

For a give set of goals there is a perfect condition available that the game can reach (and then shouldn't be touched anymore, since any more modifications would reduce the perfect goal matching).
That was just rude.
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