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Old February 19, 2013, 07:59   #11
Timo Pietilš
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Originally Posted by Derakon View Post
Since aggravation doesn't stack, there's no additional penalty to having 4+ aggravating items over just having 1.
That again brings my mind, now that we have multiple PVAL:s in items wouldn't fixing that be as easy as just plain making them have largish negative stealth value. Say -4 for all items that aggravate, so it would not be binary that doesn't care what else you are wearing.

Maybe keep item or two that actually aggravate still do that.

I would also want to add an item flag that causes fear in monsters, not like a spell but a bit like orcs flee from clvl 50 char, something that simply artificially raises your clvl number for that calculation (maybe over clvl 50). The One Ring is great candidate for that flag. All the elven rings as well.
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Old February 20, 2013, 19:32   #12
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Or, for a variant on that idea, how about an item that artificially inflated your clvl for the purposes of monster spawning?

(Monster spawns still depend in part on clvl, right?)
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Old February 20, 2013, 19:57   #13
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Or, for a variant on that idea, how about an item that artificially inflated your clvl for the purposes of monster spawning?

(Monster spawns still depend in part on clvl, right?)
They had better not; I don't think they ever have in fact. Monsters spawn based on dungeon level, not character level. Otherwise why would we have all these arguments about how fast to dive?
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Old February 20, 2013, 20:28   #14
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Originally Posted by Timo Pietilš View Post
I would also want to add an item flag that causes fear in monsters, not like a spell but a bit like orcs flee from clvl 50 char, something that simply artificially raises your clvl number for that calculation (maybe over clvl 50). The One Ring is great candidate for that flag. All the elven rings as well.
A bit off topic, but I like the idea of monsters fleeing from the level (like in Sil) Only, I think the player should get the experience for the kill for the monster fleeing the level (and any items/artifacts should show up in the black market). This is not appropriate for V.
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Old February 21, 2013, 19:36   #15
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Originally Posted by Timo Pietilš View Post
That again brings my mind, now that we have multiple PVAL:s in items wouldn't fixing that be as easy as just plain making them have largish negative stealth value. Say -4 for all items that aggravate, so it would not be binary that doesn't care what else you are wearing.

Maybe keep item or two that actually aggravate still do that.

I would also want to add an item flag that causes fear in monsters, not like a spell but a bit like orcs flee from clvl 50 char, something that simply artificially raises your clvl number for that calculation (maybe over clvl 50). The One Ring is great candidate for that flag. All the elven rings as well.
Sorry, I sort of signed up for that and instituted it as -10, 15 or 20 to stealth, but sneaking around was still way too easy. I can't code for nothing, so I couldn't change it. It's probably in some commit somewhere if anyone wants to use it.
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Old February 21, 2013, 19:56   #16
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Sorry, I sort of signed up for that and instituted it as -10, 15 or 20 to stealth, but sneaking around was still way too easy. I can't code for nothing, so I couldn't change it. It's probably in some commit somewhere if anyone wants to use it.
That seems odd, since stealth skill ranges from 0 to 30, and at 0 there's only a 1 in 1024 chance of a monster not being disturbed. Of course, disturbance doesn't translate immediately into waking up (some monsters are deeper sleepers than others), but I'd be surprised if you could avoid waking things up when your stealth is at 0, even later in the game when your speed means that stealth checks are made less often.
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Old February 21, 2013, 20:28   #17
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That seems odd, since stealth skill ranges from 0 to 30, and at 0 there's only a 1 in 1024 chance of a monster not being disturbed. Of course, disturbance doesn't translate immediately into waking up (some monsters are deeper sleepers than others), but I'd be surprised if you could avoid waking things up when your stealth is at 0, even later in the game when your speed means that stealth checks are made less often.
Late in the game you have telepathy, which is also roughly the range that stealth checks come in. So it's easy to avoid the monster since you know it's there. Also, sleeping monsters take time to wake up, even if you routinely fail the stealth test. Each fail decreases the sleep counter until the monster wakes up. Some monsters (i.e ainur) have high sleep counters, so they take a while to wake up.
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Old February 21, 2013, 20:52   #18
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If you're within 50 tiles of the monster, then they'll lose 2 "sleepiness" each check (within 33 tiles, 3; within 25, 4; etc). While it's true that Istar have 255 sleepiness when spawned, most non-dragon/demon/ainur top out around 50 and are usually quite a bit lower (lots are only at 10). IIRC telepathy has a radius of 24 tiles, meaning that if you can see a monster with it, then it'll be losing 4 sleepiness/check -- and has already lost quite a bit at 2/check and 1/check when you couldn't see it.

I think the main problem we run into with stealth is the fact that if you're twice as fast then you're effectively also twice as stealthy (as measured in how many player turns pass before the monster wakes up). Noise really ought to be normalized such that speed makes no difference to stealth. Arguably it should make you noisier, but I think that has important balance ramifications; I'd just be happy if late-game monsters were about as easy to wake up for a given investment in stealth as early-game monsters are.
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Old February 22, 2013, 05:11   #19
Timo Pietilš
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Late in the game you have telepathy, which is also roughly the range that stealth checks come in.
Monsters have detection range, which in many cases is far less than telepathy/aggravation range. That might explain why aggravation is far worse than just low stealth.
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Old February 22, 2013, 05:42   #20
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Monsters have detection range, which in many cases is far less than telepathy/aggravation range. That might explain why aggravation is far worse than just low stealth.
Actually, the monster's vision range has no effect whatsoever on stealth -- you can wake the monster up from across the map if you're unstealthy enough. From what I can tell, the "vision" range for a monster simply is part of the determination for whether the monster should be processed (i.e. gets a turn). From monster/melee2.c, a monster gets processed if they're within their vision range, they've been injured, the player can see them, or they can "flow" to the player (which has a similar range check based on the monster's vision, so I believe this call is redundant).

In fact, at 0 stealth you're quite likely to wake faraway monsters up before they ever get activated, since you'll almost always disturb monsters (1 in 1024 chance to not disturb them), and the minimum decrement to a monster's sleepiness is 1 regardless of distance to the player or any monster attributes.

But yes, monsters with low vision are functionally asleep until the player gets close. However, that's true whether or not the player is aggravating.
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