Sil-Q final beta release before 1.5.0

[Quirk]

Have fixed tutorial issues, and after a frustrating hour or two deleted the Windows help menu since I was not having any success trying to get it to launch the PDF. Micr0Chasm will probably fix up the manual.

The macros and keymaps I am afraid I know nothing about. Sil is built on an old and ugly Angband codebase. Dragons lurk.

The Windows code is very dated and I am afraid I only make fixes under some duress. Similarly rearranging the terminal UI is enough of a pain I probably won't attempt to document the arrow keys on the character screen.

[Infinitum]

Removing a weapon in tiles doesn't clear the symbol in the equipment window. Going to Ascii and back fixes it.

[smbhax]

Originally Posted by Quirk

Have fixed tutorial issues, and after a frustrating hour or two deleted the Windows help menu since I was not having any success trying to get it to launch the PDF. Micr0Chasm will probably fix up the manual.

The macros and keymaps I am afraid I know nothing about. Sil is built on an old and ugly Angband codebase. Dragons lurk.

The Windows code is very dated and I am afraid I only make fixes under some duress. Similarly rearranging the terminal UI is enough of a pain I probably won't attempt to document the arrow keys on the character screen.

Cool! Yeah a lot of that stuff does look old and scary. ^_ ^

[smbhax]

More awful noob feedback = o

Even though I did the tutorial--weeks ago, which is way more time than I need to forget everything--when I actually encountered a forge in the wild with my complete non-crafting build, I forgot everything, even how to use it; for instance, I was puzzled as to why I couldn't activate it while standing next to it, and actually had to stand *on* it before I could use it:

idiot meets a forge

I couldn't grasp the forging UI at all; the color coding completely bypassed my understanding, for instance: I managed to take the red text as just colorful decoration rather than meaning "you can't do this because you don't have the skill, moron." The two-tone graying out of things, my brain found inscrutable--I think it would have needed things a lot *more* grayed out? I don't know. And I'm completely in the dark about Artifice and Melt.

Looking back at the tutorial section on forging, I notice that it just tells you what keys to hit to produce a certain item for which you conveniently have everything necessary, without explaining why that works or what all the other forge options do.

Separately, I'm confused about identifying things. I haven't found anything like a old-fashioned Scroll of Identify. Do you need the actual specific crafting skills in order to identify things like staves, rings and potions? (Aside from maybe learning by using staves and potions that have obvious effects?) In the tutorial, the only thing I could find on identifying was that you find a magic sword, and learn its orc-slaying enchantment by hitting a conveniently placed nearby orc or whatever with it.

[Pete Mack]

There are fairly rare staffs of ID. There is ID by use. And there is an expensive perception ability.

[Quirk]

Originally Posted by smbhax

And I'm completely in the dark about Artifice and Melt.

Melting lets you transform mithril items into raw mithril, which you can make other mithril items with.

Artifice requires you to make a item of some basic type, then using the Artifice menu add any of a very wide range of modifications to it.

Originally Posted by smbhax

Looking back at the tutorial section on forging, I notice that it just tells you what keys to hit to produce a certain item for which you conveniently have everything necessary, without explaining why that works or what all the other forge options do.

If you don't mind, I'll take this as a solitary report for now. This is the first feedback I've had so far where forging has been found unintuitive; and there's a certain baseline level of unintuitiveness about ASCII roguelikes it is hard to fully resolve.

Originally Posted by smbhax

Separately, I'm confused about identifying things. I haven't found anything like a old-fashioned Scroll of Identify. Do you need the actual specific crafting skills in order to identify things like staves, rings and potions? (Aside from maybe learning by using staves and potions that have obvious effects?) In the tutorial, the only thing I could find on identifying was that you find a magic sword, and learn its orc-slaying enchantment by hitting a conveniently placed nearby orc or whatever with it.

So if you can make the item (via Enchantment or Jewellery) you can identify it. If you are especially skilled in the use of staves or horns (via Channelling) you can identify them also. Alchemy lets you identify potions and herbs, but also staves and horns - this is largely a convenience thing as many players don't want to "play the ID game".

It is possible to use-identify items also, but you need to be in a situation where their use has noticeable effects. A staff of Imprisonment, which locks doors, needs to be identified near an unlocked door; a potion of Clarity or Antidote when you are suffering from an effect curable by such potions. All but a few potions are quite readily identifiable, but many staffs require a nearby enemy to make identification possible. This requires an awareness of what the possibilities are to do well, and so is a skill acquired with experience of the game. Not everyone loves this mechanic, but it is as old as Rogue itself.

As Pete Mack mentions, there are also staffs of identify that can be used to identify any type of items.

I have in the recent past looked into a large overhaul of items to make them more Tolkienesque, but there are many things I would like to change there and doing so would force players to relearn the ID game entirely, so I have put this off for the unspecified future.

[joeljpa]

version 1.5.0-beta2

Bless me father for I've sinned and these are my....feedback points;

1. Undo last learnt ability: Has this ever been bought up? This was a minor quibble for me in the old Sil as well. Quite a few times, I selected an ability by mistake. I know there's a simple confirmation but a lot of times just a simple feature like this would have helped the player greatly. Sometimes we don't think it through you know! or for other human error-related reasons. I've noticed this feature in quite a few RPG games and there you even have the luxury of errr loading a saved game hehe. My entire character then has to pay for that misplaced and wasted XP till he dies. Of course, it should have a strict window period with after certain conditions, you wouldn't be able to undo anymore. I know this would be potentially exploitable by the player otherwise. Like my last character, I think I chose "impale" which near "follow-through" and I didn't even use polearms! And now I had to pay more XP for follow-through. At the top of my head say if I could have undone that in the menu itself, this being say the window period, exiting it ends the period. I didn't think this through more and I'm sure we all could come up with better ideas if this is taken up as a feature.
   
2. Ditto per above but for forging: When you're about to forge, it doesn't even ask for that simple confirmation. I've created quite a few items by mistake like this.
   
3. I'm a bit confused about the manual. I could only find the manual for version 1.4 so it didn't tell me what abilities like "Oath" did. Also what "Stand fast against foes" did, this I learnt only trying out the equipment and then seeing it was knockback + swap location resistance when such monsters attacked me.
   
4. If my memory servers right the old Sil or if not, vaniila Angband, explicitly changes the wording of smite weapons while attacking the said monster. "you smite the orc" instead of "you hit the orc". Wouldn't this minor thing be a good QOL improvement? As opposed to me making sure I'm holding the right primary or secondary weapon when I view my equipment periodically as fighting scenarios change?

[Quirk]

Originally Posted by joeljpa

version 1.5.0-beta2[*]Undo last learnt ability: Has this ever been bought up? This was a minor quibble for me in the old Sil as well. Quite a few times, I selected an ability by mistake. I know there's a simple confirmation but a lot of times just a simple feature like this would have helped the player greatly.

This is not a particularly simple feature to implement, and would of course be very abusable if the player was able to take a turn with the new skill and then undo it. I think the confirmation is enough here as I'm afraid I haven't heard this complaint from anyone else.

Originally Posted by joeljpa

[*]Ditto per above but for forging: When you're about to forge, it doesn't even ask for that simple confirmation. I've created quite a few items by mistake like this.

Forging similarly requires you to accept the item before you start, but I guess it wouldn't hurt to have an extra confirmation on accepting the item with its full name given to you before you begin crafting.

Originally Posted by joeljpa

[*]I'm a bit confused about the manual. I could only find the manual for version 1.4 so it didn't tell me what abilities like "Oath" did. Also what "Stand fast against foes" did, this I learnt only trying out the equipment and then seeing it was knockback + swap location resistance when such monsters attacked me.

The current manual is in the main directory of the zip. Not all item properties are listed in the manual, but a staff of self-knowledge generally will give you additional detailed information on item abilities.

Originally Posted by joeljpa

[*]If my memory servers right the old Sil or if not, vaniila Angband, explicitly changes the wording of smite weapons while attacking the said monster. "you smite the orc" instead of "you hit the orc".

Sil does not, and what you call "smite" weapons are in fact "slay" weapons. You may be thinking of the weapon identification on initial attack, which tells you that your weapon strikes truly.

Sil-Q does use "you smite the orc" to tell you that you attacked using the Smite skill. There are in fact a fair few such variations: in the original you had "stealthily attack" and "charge", now there are also "impale" and "smite". All of these would need additional modifiers based on the weapon - which could have a slay, or could have sharpness, or be branded, or be vampiric. In short this seems like the kind of thing that would risk making messages get too long and cause the player to have to respond to -more- prompts on every hit. This is fine on initial ID, but tedious afterwards.

The inventory window already displays weapon glow when you have an enemy nearby that the weapon slays, and your light radius changes.

[joeljpa]

Originally Posted by Quirk

This is not a particularly simple feature to implement, and would of course be very abusable if the player was able to take a turn with the new skill and then undo it. I think the confirmation is enough here as I'm afraid I haven't heard this complaint from anyone else..

Yea, I'd imagine it being exploitable. How about keeping it undo very strict, only restricted to the ability menu? Meaning if I learn impale and it was a mistake, I can undo it as long as I remain in the menu. Once I exit it, the chance is lost forever? In this way, the player is not allowed to play his character at all. Hehe I'm the only complainant? Then I completely get you.

Originally Posted by Quirk

The current manual is in the main directory of the zip. Not all item properties are listed in the manual, but a staff of self-knowledge generally will give you additional detailed information on item abilities.

Thanks, I was looking for the manual since I was playing via the Android port.

Originally Posted by Quirk

Sil-Q does use "you smite the orc" to tell you that you attacked using the Smite skill. There are in fact a fair few such variations: in the original you had "stealthily attack" and "charge", now there are also "impale" and "smite". All of these would need additional modifiers based on the weapon - which could have a slay, or could have sharpness, or be branded, or be vampiric. In short this seems like the kind of thing that would risk making messages get too long and cause the player to have to respond to -more- prompts on every hit. This is fine on initial ID, but tedious afterwards.

Oh. I didn't think this through. Okay then, the current ways of knowing your slay weapon I'm aware of, so that's cool.

Originally Posted by Quirk

Forging similarly requires you to accept the item before you start, but I guess it wouldn't hurt to have an extra confirmation on accepting the item with its full name given to you before you begin crafting.

Thanks!

Oh and a big thanks for your work in continuing Sil! I was playing it since last month and I last played the original a few years ago. It's definitely gone way forward. I even got my highest score of reaching Morgoth and managing to escape just one level above. I think my old highscore wasn't beyond 700 ft before. I put in a lot of hours this time.

[seraph]

is concentration supposed to work with opportunist?