Angband.oook.cz
Angband.oook.cz
AboutVariantsLadderForumCompetitionComicScreenshotsFunniesLinks

Go Back   Angband Forums > Angband > Vanilla

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old April 7, 2011, 17:29   #1
tigpup
Apprentice
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Scotland
Posts: 94
tigpup is on a distinguished road
Randomness

So, if there were to be random monsters, how would you like to see them implemented?

I can think of a couple of ways.

Take the purple dragon as an example.

1. The purple dragon breathes *unknowns*, so you find out what these *unknowns* are (say acid & nexus), and purple dragons will always breathe acid & nexus for the duration of this game. I call this game-to-game randomness.

or...

2. The purple dragon breathes *unknowns*, so you find out about this purple dragon, but the next one you encounter will breathe different unknowns. I call this encounter-to-encounter randomness.

Obviously this only looks at dragon breaths. Other monsters could have attacks, abilities, spells, drops, HP etc that vary from game-to-game or encounter-to-encounter.

I'm not familiar with variants apart from NPP, so I'm not sure if this has been implemented elsewhere. NPP player ghosts are the closest I've seen to this.

What's your thoughts on monster randomness?

- Neil.
tigpup is offline   Reply With Quote
Old April 7, 2011, 17:49   #2
Derakon
Prophet
 
Derakon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 9,024
Derakon is on a distinguished road
At some level I want to say that any random monster should have its attacks automatically be known. After all, one of the most important things that separates the newbies from the veterans here is that the veterans know what the monsters are capable of, which allows them to decide whether or not to avoid a given encounter before it even starts. Meanwhile the newbies have to risk instadeaths or read the spoilers.

I know I certainly wouldn't enjoy discovering that this game, I happened to encounter a monster that hits to paralyze before I found FA. As it stands, I know better than to melee homunculi or carrion crawlers before getting FA, and I do just fine. Just as an example.

In short, I don't think the "discovering what a monster can do" aspect of the game is very interesting. What's interesting is how you deal with the monsters' capabilities.

EDIT: I also wouldn't object to having all monsters, random or not, have their attacks and estimated damage be known as soon as the monster is seen.

Last edited by Derakon; April 7, 2011 at 18:38.
Derakon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old April 7, 2011, 18:18   #3
Starhawk
Adept
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Indianapolis IN, USA
Posts: 246
Starhawk is on a distinguished road
On the one hand, I think it'd be refreshing to introduce random uniques - so you don't have the exact same set to stomp every game.

On the other hand, I get killed enough while already having these uniques in monster memory....

But at least it would make a Rod of Probing a godsend piece of equipment.
Starhawk is offline   Reply With Quote
Old April 7, 2011, 19:17   #4
camlost
Sangband 1.x Maintainer
 
camlost's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 523
camlost is on a distinguished road
Quote:
Originally Posted by Starhawk View Post
On the one hand, I think it'd be refreshing to introduce random uniques - so you don't have the exact same set to stomp every game.

On the other hand, I get killed enough while already having these uniques in monster memory....

But at least it would make a Rod of Probing a godsend piece of equipment.
Player ghosts generate (somewhat) random uniques in variants that support them. Of course, they also come fully-known, which seems like afair enough tradeoff.
__________________
a chunk of Bronze {These look tastier than they are. !E}
3 blank Parchments (Vellum) {No french novels please.}
camlost is offline   Reply With Quote
Old April 8, 2011, 10:05   #5
tigpup
Apprentice
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Scotland
Posts: 94
tigpup is on a distinguished road
Quote:
Originally Posted by Derakon View Post
After all, one of the most important things that separates the newbies from the veterans here is that the veterans know what the monsters are capable of, which allows them to decide whether or not to avoid a given encounter before it even starts. Meanwhile the newbies have to risk instadeaths
This is where I have a problem. It's not so much a player's "vetran" status that gives them this advantage, but their memory. I've been playing RL's for about 15 years, but I play intermitently and my memory is poor, so I forget what certain monsters can do what. I also usually need to id artifacts because I can't remember all their powers.

Two solutions to this:

1: Full, obvious monster knowledge for every player (complete monster memory).

2: Limited, non-obvious monster knowledge for every player (some random monsters).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Derakon View Post
In short, I don't think the "discovering what a monster can do" aspect of the game is very interesting
Sure, but that's merely a matter of preference. I happen to like those aspects of the game, which I why I usually play randarts. I remember first playing Moria and found the 'how will that monster try to kill me' aspect one of the big draws of the game. First AMHD encouter, first Balrog enounter, Evil Iggy. They were all exciting things. Blasting though a pit of safe giants or orcs in V is tedium to me, especially when I know they pose no threat.

Personally, I'd enjoy standing a few squares from a purple dragon and wondering 'is it worth the risk?'.

Obviously, random monsters is a step too far for V; it would make for a significantly different game. I do however feel that good player memory is too big a factor in this game.

- Neil.
tigpup is offline   Reply With Quote
Old April 9, 2011, 02:34   #6
Estie
Veteran
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Germany
Posts: 2,086
Estie is on a distinguished road
Random monsters and random artifacts are 2 entirely different things. The latter you can sort out in town while the former interferes with combat where every turn is precious. I have to agree with Derakon that I dont see random monsters improving the game.

What I think would be good is random abilities on uniques. While having to learn each monster set anew every game sounds like drudgery, making the unique fights more spicy might be good. However, I think if you do that you also need to increase the incentive to kill uniques. Maybe shift the likelyhood to get artifacts from monster drop/dungeon floor towards unique drop.
Estie is offline   Reply With Quote
Old April 9, 2011, 03:15   #7
Hariolor
Swordsman
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 289
Hariolor is on a distinguished road
I think the OP's question is working from a condition of reverse causality, so to speak.

The first question should be what is our goal, then we'd ask how it could be implemented.

The impression I get is that randomness in monster traits is intended to introduce variability to make the game more interesting/dynamic for players at all levels.

The question I'd have is whether the goal is to make it interesting due to increased danger (due to the unknown), or just interesting in terms of not seeing the *same* purple dragon every game.

Keep in mind that any danger in the game can be overcome by increased caution, so I should think the randomness has to contribute an entertainment other than just danger or it'd be nothing but superfluous feature creep.
Hariolor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old April 9, 2011, 05:07   #8
d_m
Angband Devteam member
 
d_m's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Philadelphia, PA, USA
Age: 41
Posts: 1,516
d_m is on a distinguished road
Quote:
Originally Posted by Derakon View Post
In short, I don't think the "discovering what a monster can do" aspect of the game is very interesting. What's interesting is how you deal with the monsters' capabilities.

EDIT: I also wouldn't object to having all monsters, random or not, have their attacks and estimated damage be known as soon as the monster is seen.
I totally agree with this. I don't think there are many experienced or veteran players who like the idea of playing without having a pretty good idea of what monsters can do. Regarding new players, there seem to be several different feelings:

1. Learning monster attacks/spells/breaths experimentally (e.g. by instadeath) is fun
2. It's not fun, but it's important to make new players do it to haze them
3. It's not fun, but people can just use spoilers so it's basically OK
4. It's not fun, and players should get full spoilers
5. It's not fun, and players should get some kind of minimal spoiler or warning

I disagree with #1 and #2, and fall somewhere between #3-5 (probably 5 if I was less lazy).

For what it's worth, I really like the idea of random uniques (to make it harder to predict what kind of equipment you will need in advance, and also to make things more interesting game to game). One side benefit of that is that it will align the veteran and new player experience a little bit, which I think will be healthy (in that there will be more interest in creating a better experience for learning about monsters).
__________________
linux->xterm->screen->pmacs
d_m is offline   Reply With Quote
Old April 9, 2011, 15:23   #9
buzzkill
Prophet
 
buzzkill's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Indiana, USA
Posts: 2,939
Donated: $8
buzzkill is on a distinguished road
Even if you didn't want to randomize their attacks and bring about the chorus of instadeath, you can randomize some of their resists, which will bring about some variability without the instantly deadly consequences.

Of course, as long as the monsters don't know all the players abilities, I have no problem with the player having some unknowns, even attacks, about the monsters.
__________________
www.mediafire.com/buzzkill - Get your 32x32 tiles here. UT32 now compatible Ironband and Quickband 9/6/2012.
My banding life on Buzzkill's ladder.
buzzkill is offline   Reply With Quote
Old April 9, 2011, 16:35   #10
Scraper
Apprentice
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Osaka, Japan.
Posts: 99
Scraper is on a distinguished road
An alternative is for the "character" to have the ability to learn, rather than the player.

Have logs or journals as items which the "character" can find, that will detail the strengths or weaknesses of a certain monster.

You read ?"xhsdfhs" : "Today I learned that whilst snagas were susceptible to light, hill orcs seemed to suffer no negative effects"

This is probably a programming nightmare, but a way of allowing a "character" to learn something about their *current* game that the "player" doesn't know; without having to experience a potentially game ending fight.
Scraper is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Dicey Randomness Narvius Vanilla 9 September 10, 2008 16:54


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 03:37.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2022, vBulletin Solutions Inc.