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Old January 30, 2013, 11:05   #71
Mikko Lehtinen
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The only D&D version with 18/XX was AD&D. Even there, it was only used with Strength.
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Old January 30, 2013, 16:18   #72
Derakon
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dos350 is the perfect example of the kind of guy that makes changing Angband so difficult -- he'll complain about every gameplay change we make, and yet he refuses to stick with the old "perfect" version (which I think is 3.2 in his case).
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Old January 30, 2013, 16:25   #73
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If you're improving the game, what matter that someone complains?

I mean I realise that complaints and feedback can be a good barometer if you're not sure whether a change is an improvement. But there seems to be pretty good evidence that you get complaints even in the case of improvements, so it's important not to be held in thrall by them.
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Old January 30, 2013, 17:39   #74
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It mostly just matters in that it gets discouraging to try to make improvements to the game and have the naysayers vastly outspeak the people who think the change is a good one. I'm not saying that the community is bad, just that the people who resist change tend to be more vocal than the ones that accept it.
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Old January 30, 2013, 18:14   #75
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Originally Posted by Derakon View Post
I'm not saying that the community is bad, just that the people who resist change tend to be more vocal than the ones that accept it.
There's a strong and silent voice you're ignoring. Change doesn't just happen. Change is initiated by someone. Those who disagree must be vocal or said change will simply happen. Those who are accepting need merely remain silent.

If one could simply freeze Angband development, in whole or part, without saying a word, then those who would seek change would be the more vocal.
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Old January 30, 2013, 19:52   #76
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Originally Posted by Scatha View Post
If you're improving the game, what matter that someone complains?

I mean I realise that complaints and feedback can be a good barometer if you're not sure whether a change is an improvement. But there seems to be pretty good evidence that you get complaints even in the case of improvements, so it's important not to be held in thrall by them.
Moreover, I'd be really, really surprised if the devteam was being held in thrall by dos350. Also delighted.
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Old January 30, 2013, 20:19   #77
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I recall Magnate saying something to the effect that the real problem is disagreement among the dev team. The dev team is a microcosm of the larger community?
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Old January 30, 2013, 21:13   #78
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Originally Posted by Mikko Lehtinen View Post
I recall Magnate saying something to the effect that the real problem is disagreement among the dev team. The dev team is a microcosm of the larger community?
That's not been my experience. Each individual dev member tends to work on what they find interesting, and when that work produces changes that can be integrated into Vanilla (not always the case!), it gets integrated. The main issue with change to Vanilla tends to be differentiating between upgrades and sidegrades, i.e. changes which are unambiguously improvements, and ones which some consider improvements and others don't. The vast majority of changes (practically everything that isn't a UI improvement) fall under the latter category, and the community arguing over where Vanilla should go is what produces most of the paralysis.

Magnate is free to come in and disagree with me, of course.
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Old January 30, 2013, 22:36   #79
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Originally Posted by Derakon View Post
That's not been my experience. Each individual dev member tends to work on what they find interesting, and when that work produces changes that can be integrated into Vanilla (not always the case!), it gets integrated. The main issue with change to Vanilla tends to be differentiating between upgrades and sidegrades, i.e. changes which are unambiguously improvements, and ones which some consider improvements and others don't. The vast majority of changes (practically everything that isn't a UI improvement) fall under the latter category, and the community arguing over where Vanilla should go is what produces most of the paralysis.

Magnate is free to come in and disagree with me, of course.
Not this time - I agree with all that. I don't know precisely which post Mikko is recalling, but I have said two things on this theme which I believe are both true:

(i) there's often little consensus in the devteam on what the top priorities are. This shouldn't surprise anybody, as it's impossible for us to have this conversation without being mindful of what we'd enjoy working on, and it's lame to say "this is a real priority but I'm not interested in doing it" - so we don't say that. So we each acknowledge that our priorities are what we want to work on, and there's never more than an agreed wishlist of objective priorities. This is partly why stat linearisation's never been done, even though it's been on the agreed wishlist for a long time - nobody fancies it.

(ii) there's often little consensus about the best solution to a problem. Again, the best solution is the one somebody bothers to code and test and improve until it's worthy of a pull request. Again, we rarely say "I'd do it like this ... but I'm not going to" - though of course we all share ideas in case someone wants to pick them up.
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Old January 30, 2013, 22:53   #80
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This is partly why stat linearisation's never been done, even though it's been on the agreed wishlist for a long time - nobody fancies it.
If you mean ditching the 18/xx scheme, then yeah, I agree. If you meant making HP and SP scale more linearly with stat gains then I disagree. To the point where I have worked on rebalancing it for my own play version and have just not bothered to even suggest porting it to V because I just don't want to hassle with justifying the change.
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