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Old March 9, 2017, 21:14   #11
bio_hazard
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Originally Posted by Derakon View Post
It's an interesting idea, but I suspect that most players would look at "you have to spend several turns doing ''nothing'' before you can actually get the result you want" and decide "no thanks, I'll just hit the thing with my weapon/arrow/spell instead."

The vast majority of the player's options for interacting with monsters have immediate results. If you want to introduce delayed effects (which status ailments already are), then I really think saving throws need to be removed as a concept. Either a monster is immune, or they are 100% susceptible, and status effects are scaled so that this isn't unbalanced.
Totally agree. Maybe a place for it if ranged attacks get nerfed, or there were better options for a more device-reliant strategy.
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Old March 9, 2017, 21:58   #12
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I could see an adaptation of your suggestion though where monsters get more susceptible to magical effects of all types as they get more magical effects layered on them. So e.g. monsters would take more damage from your Dragon's Flame wands if they've been slowed and confused first. This would probably have to be a special power of a specific class (rogue, or maybe a new class altogether) rather than something everyone could take advantage of, though.
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Old March 9, 2017, 22:15   #13
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depends on how much a 100% effect debuffs an enemy. if Slow was -2, instead of -10 (or even a variable) then it would be balanced.
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Old March 13, 2017, 08:34   #14
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Slow and confuse are incredibly useful if they work, but and sleep has some utility. I know this because I played Oangband where these things work sometimes.

About status effects being useless unless they're 100% reliable.. nonsense. If it takes me 10 hits to kill a monster I have a 50% chance of confusing, not confusing it is simply lazy.

These wands/status effects shouldn't be optimal for a warrior, in most cases the warrior should be better off simply hitting the thing. For others status effects should be not the best option perhaps but at least an option.

I really like the status effects as they are and it would be great if they worked.
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Old March 13, 2017, 14:27   #15
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You are of course free to have your opinion, but I disagree with it. Slow and confuse are incredibly useful if they work, it's true -- which is why they cannot be allowed to work! They're too good, to the point that they make fights trivial. So nobody tries to use them, because they "never" work. Even in the early game, where monsters don't always resist the statuses, players have been trained to simply not try. They don't even pick up the wands unless they're playing a selling game!

So the goal is to try to strike a balance where the statuses do work without being overpowered.

And why the hate for warriors?
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Old March 13, 2017, 14:52   #16
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And why the hate for warriors?
To be fair, as someone who plays almost exclusively warriors, it's largely because my preferred playstyle tends towards the three possible monster-tackling strategies of "stab it", "shoot it until it gets close and then stab it", and "stab it until it looks like it's about to kill me, then run away, heal, come back and stab it some more". So it would be a very uphill battle to convince me to deploy a status effect over one that caused damage in any situation but the "run away" phase. (And probably make the game less fun for me if using them did become the optimal/necessary strategy for warriors. There's a reason I never manage to stick it out for long playing classes that have to faff about with spells to survive.)
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Old March 13, 2017, 18:21   #17
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if your status effect has 1% chance of working, it's not worth it because the alternative (TO, damage, Tp) is better. ideally, we would have a system where you have a reasonable chance of debuffing most mobs, but the effects are lowered depending on their level.
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Old March 15, 2017, 14:28   #18
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You are of course free to have your opinion, but I disagree with it. Slow and confuse are incredibly useful if they work, it's true -- which is why they cannot be allowed to work! They're too good, to the point that they make fights trivial.
So do really high damage weapons. If a caster is able to confuse a lower level monster in avg 1.5 casts and a warrior is able to kill it in avg 1.5 rounds that's a much more favourable confuse:kill difficulty than we have at present and even then a confused monster is still not as good as a dead one. If it's a tough monster that the warrior needs 10 rounds or so to kill and your chances of confusing it are 10%, you can gamble. Or just use damage spells.

Current status effects don't need nerfing, they just need to work more. They could see a large buff to chances of landing, and open up a different playstyle which the game is capable of providing without becoming optimal compared to what's already catered for.
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Old March 15, 2017, 15:12   #19
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So do really high damage weapons. If a caster is able to confuse a lower level monster in avg 1.5 casts and a warrior is able to kill it in avg 1.5 rounds that's a much more favourable confuse:kill difficulty than we have at present and even then a confused monster is still not as good as a dead one. If it's a tough monster that the warrior needs 10 rounds or so to kill and your chances of confusing it are 10%, you can gamble. Or just use damage spells.
Right, in your example, given the choice between a 10% chance of confusing the target, after which I still have to kill it, or just doing 10% damage, I'll almost certainly pick the damage option, and so I'd wager would the vast majority of our player base. It's far more reliable. Not to mention that you can't actually see your chances of success anywhere in the game, so you have no idea if your odds are 1% or 10% or 50%, all you know is that usually you can't land the status effect. But you can see the impact you have on the monster's health bar.

Given that the current set of status effects have to be hard to land, because they're so powerful, you're looking at, at best, 1 in 3 odds of succeeding against a monster you actually care about. , and probably substantially less. Really the only good argument I can see in favor of giving status effects saving throws is that it lets you vary monsters by how susceptible they are to status effects (so e.g. a berserker would have a bad saving throw, while an archlich would have a good one). But you can imitate that just as well with guaranteed status effects by just making the effect more or less powerful (berserkers take a -5 speed from slowing instead of the -2 that archliches take).
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Old March 15, 2017, 15:23   #20
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While I think deterministic stacking of status effects is an interesting idea, I think status effects could be fixed simply by altering the probabilities. If I'm playing a warrior I'm doing that to hit things but a character like a rogue might want to be able to confuse/slow things occasionally at the cost of not being as good at hand to hand combat, or even a warrior might be well served filling a spare inventory slot with a wand of scare monster in case of emergency. Even if doing so makes me overall less effective than a warrior, as long as it's reasonably effective or effective enough to help me win (bad example because rogues win anyway) it gives people options.
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