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Old April 20, 2017, 20:56   #11
Pete Mack
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@Derakon-
Nomad's proposal was linear in the other direction, meaning that early points made little difference. Your proposal causes later points to be of lesser value: the difference between 12 and 16 turns is essentially immaterial.
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Old April 20, 2017, 21:37   #12
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Quote:
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@Derakon-
Nomad's proposal was linear in the other direction, meaning that early points made little difference. Your proposal causes later points to be of lesser value: the difference between 12 and 16 turns is essentially immaterial.
That depends entirely on how much you have to do in the vicinity of the monster. If you're sneaking through a vault, those extra four turns could be very important indeed.

Current stealth feels effectively trimodal -- there are characters that can count on stealth always working (so that no monsters wake up unless they take damage), there are characters that can count on stealth not working because they're so noisy, and there are characters that generally have some monsters wake up while they're in the middle of doing things, while others stay asleep. I'm fine with the gameplay impact of this, but it's kind of hard to measure at anything more than this high-level, super-qualitative level. That makes it hard to reason about in gameplay terms, and thus hard to make decisions about.
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Old April 20, 2017, 22:12   #13
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I'm not sure why you wish to reason about it. As a player, or a game designer? As a player, it's easy: adjust you game play to your current stealth mode. Watch for monsters that have high alertness like uniques and Hydras. I don't like the idea that it should be completely deterministic.
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Old April 20, 2017, 23:30   #14
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OK, my working plan then is to keep the system pretty similar (and in particular maintain the "mean time to wake up" of monsters), but make the code read a bit more intuitively. The main change I would think of is to have monster sleep-reduction based on the stealth-affected measure of distance I have monsters using for tracking, rather than distance as the (PASS_WALL) crow flies.
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Old April 21, 2017, 00:03   #15
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This sounds a bit like change for the sake of change. Is there a list of issues and desiderata on this somewhere?
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Old April 21, 2017, 02:06   #16
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This sounds a bit like change for the sake of change. Is there a list of issues and desiderata on this somewhere?
I have had in mind (and have mentioned occasionally) the stealth mechanic as one for possible changes. On looking more closely, I actually quite like the current system.

One of the things I am trying to do, though, is make the game's mechanics more simple and intuitive where possible. There are many pieces of code which were aimed at optimisation which is no longer needed, or which use clever programming tricks at the expense of clarity, or both. I now understand the stealth system quite well, but it took some effort to get my head around it. So in this particular case I am aiming to modify the code in such a way that the gameplay is very similar, but the effects of changes in stealth are more transparent both to players and to those reading the code.
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Old April 21, 2017, 02:52   #17
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I applaud this thinking, and will note that I'm pretty sure that before I made a forum post dissecting the stealth code, I'm pretty sure that only maybe one or two people on the forums had a clue how stealth actually worked. You shouldn't have to go dig up old forums posts just to understand core gameplay mechanics. And ideally, core gameplay mechanics should be explainable in only a couple of sentences.
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Old April 21, 2017, 03:41   #18
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@Nick--
Thanks for this explanation. Very helpful to have rationales for changes like this written down somewhere. One question: will perfect stealth still be possible? It's fun to have such a different kind of zero-fail possible. I Recall a character (kobold rogue) tiptoeing through a room with Huang, Kronos, and another high monster sleeping like babies. It's fun to choose fights that way.
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Old April 21, 2017, 05:10   #19
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One question: will perfect stealth still be possible? It's fun to have such a different kind of zero-fail possible. I Recall a character (kobold rogue) tiptoeing through a room with Huang, Kronos, and another high monster sleeping like babies. It's fun to choose fights that way.
I'll be aiming to keep the full range from pretty much everything wakes up before you get to it to pretty much nothing does.
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Old April 21, 2017, 05:44   #20
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Perfect stealth is different: nothing ever wakes up. Only ' ever vigilant' monsters will attack you by their initiative (of course, actual fighting will eventually waken monsters.)

I would prefer as well that sound attacks to waken monsters too, based on attack HP and distance from source. Shards too, and possibly lightning.
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