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Old May 17, 2017, 13:18   #171
Estie
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The problem with the ring of escaping is that it defies the rules for artifacts. A ring with "no melee" property gets assigned power -90 (or whatever), but if you add (+10,+10), (+2 attacks) to it, the power is still -90 and decreasing that value doesnt fix the issue. Itīs not a matter of flawed statistical assumptions.

I still think taking the ring of escaping out of artifact generation is the best option, or, indeed, taking it out of the game completely.

Last edited by Estie; May 17, 2017 at 13:19. Reason: Edit: typo
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Old May 17, 2017, 14:41   #172
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Estie View Post
I still think taking the ring of escaping out of artifact generation is the best option, or, indeed, taking it out of the game completely.
I don't think that will be a problem if all types of rings are allowed, rather than just Speed and Escaping.

And thanks, PowerWyrm, for that excellent analysis - I was starting to think that the power limits might be at least part of the problem, but that makes it really clear. I now have plenty to think about.
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Old May 17, 2017, 16:28   #173
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Originally Posted by Estie View Post
Giving Paur* brands would indeed turn them into endgame equipment, but that can be taken account of by making them deeper and rarer. It then becomes a choice of branding your weapon versus getting the flat +8/+10 per blow vs everything plus stats from the other top tier gloves.
Making them deeper and rarer then means that the only early/mid-game artifact gloves will be Cammithrim.

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Minor bonuses like "+5 vs. ogres" are not going to matter. Your going to use that exactly when you have no other option for the glove slot. Free action, universal damage boost and stats are all better.
So tweak the numbers until they are potentially worth using. The point is to have an alternative to the current "puts a multiplicative brand on your weapon" and "gives you flat bonus damage per blow against everything" off-weapon combat boosts.

Hell, we could make Cambeleg be "+8 damage vs. evil" and the Paur* gauntlets be "+12 fire/frost/etc. damage". There's lots of room to play with different approaches.

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There has been the tendency to give items a little bit of everything, which removes choice in the gear assembling process. You just pick "the next upgrade", like in an mmo, instead of making hard choices between, say, str or dex of an amount that matters noticably.
I don't disagree with this, but I think it's been mostly a problem with the early-game artifacts (thancs and paurs), which got boosted to make them more "competitive" with midgame arts. Which mostly just meant that if you found an early game artifact early, then you got a free ride to the midgame.
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Old May 17, 2017, 16:43   #174
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Originally Posted by Derakon View Post
Hell, we could make Cambeleg be "+8 damage vs. evil" and the Paur* gauntlets be "+12 fire/frost/etc. damage". There's lots of room to play with different approaches.
I like that idea an awful lot. You could get *Enchant Weapon* to occasionally add a random +1 damage brand as well as the flat damage. The plain multipliers have always seemed very unsubtle and in some ways are opaque to new players (ie.e that different brands/slays have different multipliers and how they fit together)

Would the monster list need rebalancing for this though? Surely flat damage is going to result in utlimately less damage output for the player, certainly in late game. Although that might stop every class essentially turning into buffed warriors at end game and meleeing everything
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Old May 17, 2017, 17:43   #175
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I actually think flat additive bonuses to damage are the wrong approach - which is why gameplay-focused variants like Oangband and Sil remove them completely. I find brands/slays as they are now a more interesting property. I think Vanilla should retain flat additive bonuses, perhaps with some adjustment, simply for tradition's sake, but I don't think we should be introducing any more.

The area of combat which needs the most attention IMO is blows per round calculations. Once the calculations are well understood and perhaps rewritten (I might volunteer to do this if nobody beats me to it) a considered approach to reworking damage calculations could be possible.

I feel like much of angband's traditional combat mechanics could be salvaged by carefully recalculating the BPR table.
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Old May 17, 2017, 17:47   #176
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Originally Posted by Huqhox View Post
I like that idea an awful lot. You could get *Enchant Weapon* to occasionally add a random +1 damage brand as well as the flat damage.
Additive bonuses aside, I think applying brands to a weapon using a scroll is a great idea, and I think I saw some unused functions related to this in the code already?

Another idea:
Instead of having off weapon brands at all, make an effect/activation which applies the brand to all the player's attacks for the duration.
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Old May 17, 2017, 19:34   #177
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Assertion failed!

Program: ...
File: obj-pile.c
Line: 73

Expression: obj -> prev == prev
Would be great if someone were able to tell how to reproduce that... I looked into angband's pile management (insert, excise, etc) and was unable to find any bugs.
Nick, maybe pile_check_integrity() should dump all information about pile (op and all objects involved) to a file on error? Someone then will encounter this bug, post the file and that should give at least some rough idea about the bug.
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Old May 18, 2017, 09:26   #178
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Estie View Post
The problem with the ring of escaping is that it defies the rules for artifacts. A ring with "no melee" property gets assigned power -90 (or whatever), but if you add (+10,+10), (+2 attacks) to it, the power is still -90 and decreasing that value doesnt fix the issue. Itīs not a matter of flawed statistical assumptions.
If you put -90 on the AFRAID flag, you'll get a base power for rings of escaping of -2, which will reject the choice of rings of escaping for 99.999% of randarts except a few heavily cursed ones, since the choice of tval will depend on that base power. So you'll never get (+10,+10) or +2 attacks on any of them.
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Old May 18, 2017, 15:34   #179
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PowerWyrm View Post
If you put -90 on the AFRAID flag, you'll get a base power for rings of escaping of -2, which will reject the choice of rings of escaping for 99.999% of randarts except a few heavily cursed ones, since the choice of tval will depend on that base power. So you'll never get (+10,+10) or +2 attacks on any of them.
That doesn't change Estie's (accurate) point that it doesn't matter how good the combat bonuses are on a randart if it also has a flag that completely prevents you from participating in combat. The AFRAID flag should just outright prevent addition of to-hit, to-dam, blows, off-weapon brands, etc. to the item.

In principle I wouldn't mind seeing the occasional Ring of Escaping-based randart; they could potentially be great gear for a mage, ranger, or priest if they had good benefits to compensate for the AFRAID flag.
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Old May 18, 2017, 19:38   #180
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Using a flavored staff in an attempt to id-by-use. Get the message, "you have no curses to remove", but, the staff remains unidentified. Obviously, a staff of remove curse.
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