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Old May 2, 2009, 23:40   #21
etaomyx
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Donald Jonker View Post
If we fix (2) so that each works reliably on monsters, but each has a unique drawback, then instead of relying on one single godly and boring solution, we suddenly have a full set of resources for dealing with vaults, diving and escapes. The game's overall difficulty need not change at all.
Well spoken. Sleep should be a legitimate strategy for escape, confusion and slow should help stop monsters getting too close, and teleport other should remain useful for dispersing monster packs that are simply too dense. Strengthen the other spells, and you have good substitutes for TO in most situations, and more varied gameplay.

Edit: I suppose another solution to the Vault Problem would be simply to exploit the anti-teleport ("CAVE_ICKY") flag to prevent monsters being teleported out of their vault. Hackish to be sure, but it would certainly make you earn your artifacts.

Last edited by etaomyx; May 2, 2009 at 23:54.
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Old May 2, 2009, 23:55   #22
Pete Mack
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@buzzkill-

I've lost several promising divers by trying to get greedy and going into a vault. (Greater Balrogs breathe for how much chaos damage???) By the time you can tunnel or STM to the entrance of most GVs, monsters have started waking up. And if there are time hounds (for example) in a big entry chamber, you just can't even get into the vault safely. Just try diving past 2500' and try a vault. The difference is dramatic when the monsters are more dangerous than ancient dragons.
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Old May 3, 2009, 00:07   #23
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Originally Posted by buzzkill View Post
I'm probably not the most qualified to speak on this, as my portfolio lacks any really deep dungeon experience.
You shouldn't be complaining about things being too easy if you don't win often. My guess is that you have yet to learn an important lesson, perhaps the most important lesson. A 1% risk is not a small risk -- it is a huge risk. The game is so long that if you habitually knowingly choose to take 1% risks, you are unlikely to win.

Those 1% risks are so tempting, and often you don't even realize you took the risk until it already happened, and sometimes you were mistaken and they were 3% risks At some point, I realized I couldn't resist temptation. As a result, I chose to embrace a playstyle where I dive quickly to shorten the game so I won't take too many such risks. If you dive at what most people consider a normal pace, you cannot afford to think of 1% as a small number.
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Old May 3, 2009, 02:50   #24
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Powerdiver says it better. It may seem like a "small" risk. But any perceptible risk is enormous in a long game. Small risks add up to death surprisingly quickly. Sure, sleeping monsters are really small risk, so long as you have a feel for who's likely to wake up. But again, if you have to tunnel to get to a really worthwhile vault, and most monsters will wake up.

Again: if you feel that Teleport other makes the game too easy, you are not diving fast enough. A side effect of this is dying from some "unlikely" event like a double failure of ... Teleport Other.

EDIT: If you remember your intro statistics course, you might remember how fast (1-ε)^n shrinks. If you never had intro statistics or probability, you are really missing out.
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Old May 3, 2009, 03:10   #25
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I do not think anyone is saying that Teleport Other makes the game too easy. Only that it is unusually cheap and universally effective as compared with similar spells, and using it to completely empty vaults to obtain free artifacts is a dumb strategy that should not work. Yet clearly, if you are willing to take the risk of opening the vault in the first place, it's presently better to Teleport Other like crazy rather than actually do any fighting, which is wrong.
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Old May 3, 2009, 03:17   #26
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Using it to empty vaults for loot is not a dumb strategy, it is the only strategy. (Compare it to *Destruction* and the Banishment spell: these have no risk, and leave the artifacts untouched. Thus they aren't strategy; they are tactics.)

If you do it too often, or for the wrong monster, or for the wrong kind of vault, you will die. This is the very definition of not too easy.

Teleport Other is a way to loot the occasional vault, a way to decline some fights, especially with sleeping monsters, and a way to combat unwanted summons. I always assumed this was WAD. It certainly doesn't qualify as a real escape, unless you haven't found a decent stack of ?Teleport Level in the Black Market.

If you are looking for something that might be undervalued and overly common, the Staff of *Destruction* is a better candidate.
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Old May 3, 2009, 07:09   #27
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I thought *Destruction* now deleted artifacts and Banishment left uniques behind.
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Old May 3, 2009, 07:22   #28
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No and yes. *destruction* serves as both a way to get rid of unwanted monsters and easy pseudo-ID for artifacts. As you say, banishment doesn't work on uniques. But this isn't too big of a problem: if you can abolish all the Time Hounds non-uniques U's and D's, what's left in a vault isn't nearly such an existential threat.
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Old May 3, 2009, 08:36   #29
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Ah. I haven't messed with the new V so the change to *destruction* may have only been discussed.
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Old May 4, 2009, 22:12   #30
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I like Teleport Other how it is. It's one of my "oh crap" buttons along with Teleport Level. I'm a casual(ish) player, so I enjoy having an ace up the sleeve to prolong the time till my inevitable death.

Maybe make it a birth/difficulty option or something.

If it ever gets booted or 'nerfed,' us fans can always write it back in the old way ourselves, though, so that's nice.

All that aside, I think I've found more artifacts outside vaults than in. For some reason I don't seem to come across vaults too often.
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