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Old May 25, 2012, 18:59   #61
emulord
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Heres an idea to prevent townscumming for final stats being terrible.

Stuff you sell decreases in price, and the town has a VERY SLIGHTLY lower chance of stocking it, because they know the player wouldn't want to buy it as much. Things will never get cheaper than the original price.

The reverse is true when you buy things. So if EVERY TIME you buy a Healing potion in the black market, it starts appearing more frequently and more expensive. The BM owner knows that you want it and will work harder to make sure its in stock, and also wants more profit for doing so.

So Stat potion's price may go up in the middle game, then down after you max your stats for example.
All your "unlimited consumables" will gradually increase in price, forcing you to conserve / not whore at one depth indefinitely.
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Old May 25, 2012, 19:39   #62
fizzix
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Quote:
Originally Posted by emulord View Post
Heres an idea to prevent townscumming for final stats being terrible.

Stuff you sell decreases in price, and the town has a VERY SLIGHTLY lower chance of stocking it, because they know the player wouldn't want to buy it as much. Things will never get cheaper than the original price.

The reverse is true when you buy things. So if EVERY TIME you buy a Healing potion in the black market, it starts appearing more frequently and more expensive. The BM owner knows that you want it and will work harder to make sure its in stock, and also wants more profit for doing so.

So Stat potion's price may go up in the middle game, then down after you max your stats for example.
All your "unlimited consumables" will gradually increase in price, forcing you to conserve / not whore at one depth indefinitely.
There have been suggestions to implement some sort of market economics to prices, including possibly aggregating data over many different players to set initial prices. I think if someone were to code up the framework for this it could probably fairly easily get in the game. But it's a lot of work to get it right, and it's hard to ask anyone that doesn't really feel strongly about it, to go ahead and do it.
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Old May 25, 2012, 23:21   #63
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fizzix View Post
There have been suggestions to implement some sort of market economics to prices, including possibly aggregating data over many different players to set initial prices. I think if someone were to code up the framework for this it could probably fairly easily get in the game. But it's a lot of work to get it right, and it's hard to ask anyone that doesn't really feel strongly about it, to go ahead and do it.
This is a brilliant encapsulation of the game of shopping problem. There are dozens of threads with detailed proposals for different, better store stocking mechanics - but it's not been a labour of love that anyone wanted to code up and show the world.

But now we have v4, and maybe somebody will. With a bit more sophistication in stores.txt (min/max clevs and dlevs for items to show up, numbers of affixes they might have, some sort of weighting by class or whatever) and some generation code in store.c, plus the investment code which can be borrowed straight from Sang - someone could quite easily offer a fairly radical new stores model for testing.
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Old May 26, 2012, 09:33   #64
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fizzix View Post
There have been suggestions to implement some sort of market economics to prices, including possibly aggregating data over many different players to set initial prices. I think if someone were to code up the framework for this it could probably fairly easily get in the game. But it's a lot of work to get it right, and it's hard to ask anyone that doesn't really feel strongly about it, to go ahead and do it.
It has already been done. Chocolate Angband has a "free market system" where things you buy often, will become more expensive, and things you sell will drop in price.

You can find the source here: http://angband.oook.cz/nt/chang.html
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Old May 26, 2012, 10:39   #65
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Originally Posted by relic View Post
It has already been done. Chocolate Angband has a "free market system" where things you buy often, will become more expensive, and things you sell will drop in price.

You can find the source here: http://angband.oook.cz/nt/chang.html
That's excellent - it's been around for eight years! All those debates and nobody knew about it. So has anybody played it?

When I get a chance I'll have a look and see how portable the pricing code is - it might be quite easy to re-use.
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Old May 26, 2012, 10:50   #66
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Originally Posted by CliffStamp View Post
-there is a massive quiver which expands the inventory
I rather like the new quiver system (as a mage) over the old 3.0.9 system. Weight is the major restriction on whether I carry the full set of 99 arrows or a half set of 50 arrows. But being able to carry around 3-4 different types of ammo with random enchantment levels on them in a single slot is a big help.

Now, if I only had a similar system for my spell books or scrolls...

Quote:
-stat drains seem to go away automatically (no restore potions ever seen)
I'm mostly happy with the idea that stats can go back up automatically, but maybe it should not be a guaranteed thing at level up. Maybe you only get back one of your stats at level-up.

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- there do not seem to be things to breath confusion
I lost a mage last night to a confusion-like breathing critter, a chaos vortex at around 1100'. (In vanilla 3.3.2.) Granted, it was a big old vault and the critters were probably at least a few levels out of depth. It was huffing and puffing at me on almost every round.
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Old May 26, 2012, 16:22   #67
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Originally Posted by wuphonsreach View Post
I rather like the new quiver system (as a mage) over the old 3.0.9 system. Weight is the major restriction on whether I carry the full set of 99 arrows or a half set of 50 arrows. But being able to carry around 3-4 different types of ammo with random enchantment levels on them in a single slot is a big help.

Now, if I only had a similar system for my spell books or scrolls...
In 3.4 the maximum stack size will be 40 instead of 99, so 99 arrows would take up 3 inventory slots.

If we were going to add similar "slot compaction" for other item types, we'd probably just move all the way to an inventory-by-bulk system instead of an inventory-by-slots system.

Quote:
I'm mostly happy with the idea that stats can go back up automatically, but maybe it should not be a guaranteed thing at level up. Maybe you only get back one of your stats at level-up.
Hm, that could work. Every time you level up, your most-drained stat is restored. That means that stat drain is still unlikely to be a major penalty in the early game, but it gets a lot nastier later on and items that restore stats become much more valuable. Time breath gets really nasty, too.

Quote:
I lost a mage last night to a confusion-like breathing critter, a chaos vortex at around 1100'. (In vanilla 3.3.2.) Granted, it was a big old vault and the critters were probably at least a few levels out of depth. It was huffing and puffing at me on almost every round.
That was chaos breath, not confusion breath. Confusion used to be an attack element like shards and sound; there were bronze dragons and dragon flies that breathed it, etc. That went away awhile back because people thought that breathing a status ailment was silly. I believe 3.4 will have baby chaos drakes, though, which should accomplish a similar purpose. Though we should also add a chaos dragon fly (chaos butterfly?).
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Old May 26, 2012, 17:21   #68
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When I get a chance I'll have a look and see how portable the pricing code is - it might be quite easy to re-use.
Hmmm. It's pretty simple - the price is raised by 5% each time you buy one, and falls by 5% each time you sell one. It uses a completely separate price_type struct to track the prices and numbers bought and sold - personally I'd just add bought and sold fields to the kind struct.

The clever bit is the function that weights the selection of items offered for sale by how much the price has risen - so stores are more likely to stock items that you've bought lots of before, and are less likely to stock stuff you've sold to them.

Doesn't look like it would be too hard to try out in v4. After so much debate, it would be good to have an alternative system in v4 to enable comparisons of how it plays.
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Old May 26, 2012, 17:38   #69
Malak Darkhunter
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I kind of feel like things are moving more in the direction of variant talk, for one i find stat drain annoying- taking out restore stat potions was one thing i didnt like but found it an acceptable change since your stats are restored at level up. To make it more annoying by punishing the player the more by only allowing one stat to restore at level up is aggravating, and i for one won't play it. Reading this thread i will put my 2 cents worth in-

1. I have always considered angband/moria a type of rpg game and i like to roll play the character, its my story.

2. I like options and i miss seeing ego weapons and armours in the stores.

3. I think things have moved more towards ironman gameplay, i do like the birth- no selling option however.

4. I prefer the old shop ui

5. Im okay with id by use and artifacts automaticaly ided

6. Like the newer font-windows interface and big screen support

7. I like 3.0.6 gameplay though feels more like the original game, think the game is changing to be not like angband anymore.
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Old May 26, 2012, 23:23   #70
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But it's a lot of work to get it right, and it's hard to ask anyone that doesn't really feel strongly about it, to go ahead and do it.
That is the purpose of a maintainer/developer. If you are going to ignore the requests from the user base then you should be on a variant not on Angband proper by definition.
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