Object detection and ID - a proposal

[Nomad]

Originally Posted by Djabanete

I admire the creativity, Nomad, but this method creates as many realism issues as it fixes --- after all, why would the magical properties of the scroll be determined by the material it's made of rather than the mysterious words written on it?

I don't know, why does it work that way for staffs and rods and wands? Why are all the potions conveniently colour-coded? The ways of Morgoth's minions are mysterious.

[Djabanete]

Originally Posted by Nomad

I don't know, why does it work that way for staffs and rods and wands? Why are all the potions conveniently colour-coded? The ways of Morgoth's minions are mysterious.

Fair point. I guess I'm just fond of the fanciful scroll names!

By the way, Nick, I hardly play anymore, but I like the idea in the OP --- probably with the variation you describe there, and with the caveat (mentioned by others) that if you drink a Potion of Boldness when not afraid, you still ID it. (Apply that principle in general, of course.) I don't know the state of the early game magic items these days, but it's much better for them to have good effects rather than bad effects, and then test-ID will be less annoying, and there will still be strategy in how to test-ID because you'll want to "get value" out of using an unknown good effect at the right moment instead of wasting it.

To answer a question you posed earlier: There are two moderately good things about the current ID system, neither of which is sufficiently good that I'd mind losing it, but there you have it. First, the "ID game" is mildly engaging in the early game, despite being deadly tedious in the late game; second, there's a fun moment of anticipation when you have a "Sword {special}" in your inventory.

In other words, I don't think you sacrifice much by having weapon-and-armor-ID-by-standing-on-top-of.

Next, remove TMJ :-)

[Timo Pietilä]

Originally Posted by Nick

I'm thinking of "rune" as a name we are using as an aid to understanding the system, not envisaging everything as actually having runes on it. We're saying rune-based ID because innate-property-you-can-notice-on-inspection-but-initially-don't-understand based ID doesn't roll off the tongue quite as easily.

+1 to that. Inspecting item, noticing familiar properties, ID ready. Char inspecting not same as player inspecting.

[Cold_Heart]

Why not just make ?id identify every object in LoS ? ...

[tumbleweed]

While we're throwing crazy ideas around, why not make True Seeing ID everything?

[Zireael]

Originally Posted by Nomad

There are 41 types of scroll by my count. Off the top of my head:

ancient, brittle, calfskin, canvas, cloth, cracked, crumbling, crumpled, dragonhide, faded, flaking, frayed, glowing, gold-trimmed, leathery, mouldy, orcskin, ornate, painted, parchment, papyrus, pigskin, ragged, ratskin, ribbon-tied, ripped, rumpled, rune-covered, scribbled, sheepskin, silk, smudged, tattered, tightly-knotted, torn, vellum, wax-sealed, wrinkled, wormskin, yeekskin, yellowed

Loving those, borrowing for my game

[Therem Harth]

In response to the OP: I think this is a great idea.

Re auto-ID: IMO the issue is that, in Angband variants, resourcefulness is a big deal. ID games limit your available options because you don't know what does what. This pushes the game towards counting on luck, and too much luck dependency makes things less interesting.

Re fuzzy detection: I do have somewhat mixed feelings about this. Personally, I like surveying a level with detection spells, picking out the vaults, noting the nasty monsters while snooping around for likely good items... Anything that encourages the player to plan stuff out is, IMO, probably a good thing.

But I can see where that would be giving the player too much power. Hmm... I think I have some ideas on that though.

[MadeOfBees]

mcf Good sir.

[d_m]

So in the spirit of Nick's original post, here are my 2¢ (NOTE that exchange rates vary wildly):

1. In the early game I find the ID metagame interesting. I do enjoy the "gotta catch 'em all" flavor discovery minigame, and I also like the fact that I often want to take risks to try to grab items lying around in the hopes of something good.

2. By the mid-game, I tend to be leaning heavily on magical ID just to save time, as well as tons of object detection. I think the nerf to object detection (only knowing that an item is there, not what it is) was a big improvement. I get tired of ID here but it's not a problem.

3. In the late game ID is either trivial or insufferable.

I guess I am fine with removing the ID minigame entirely, but I feel like something would be lost. Rune-based ID might be nice, or it might not, I'm not sure.

My suggestion (which is compatible with other ID changes) is just to make certain kinds of knowledge be based on character level. I feel like it makes narrative sense, and fits my own feelings about how exciting (or intrusive) ID is based on where I am in the game.

I'm imagining some kind of progressive curve, which might start with weapon/armor bonuses, then go through the most "obvious" kinds, then maybe most ego types, and eventually total ID. I'm not sure if flavors should be included in this ramp or not, it would work either way.

I know that historically we have de-emphasized character level, but this is a case where I think it might make sense.

[MattB]

Originally Posted by d_m

I'm imagining some kind of progressive curve, which might start with weapon/armor bonuses, then go through the most "obvious" kinds, then maybe most ego types, and eventually total ID.

I think that this is an excellent idea. It's got to be worth exploring, surely?