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Old May 27, 2012, 04:03   #11
fizzix
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The only thing that I would consider would be to be slightly less cruel for breakage. Maybe something like arrows that hit go into the monster inventory but can't break. So you have to kill the monster to get the arrows back.

99 for a quiver slot is just way too much. The quiver is incredibly overpowered. We first tried 30 but that seemed too low, 40 seems about right.
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Old May 27, 2012, 18:52   #12
Egavactip
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I don't see how it is "right." Right after my last post I went back into the dungeon and used 39 arrows in a single battle. I had to come right back up and get more arrows.
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Old May 27, 2012, 19:23   #13
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Yeah, but you did damage at range and presumably a lot of it. If you want to use a lot of arrows, you'll have to use a lot of inventory slots. That's just the way it works.
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Old May 27, 2012, 19:33   #14
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You have, broadly speaking, four main options for offense: melee, spellcasting, missiles, and magic devices.

Melee requires you to be in melee range, which means that every turn that the enemy would normally spend moving towards you (at least 50% of their turns for the vast majority of enemies) will instead be spent on dealing damage to you. Unless you're killing your enemies in a single round of combat, this means taking a lot of damage that could otherwise be avoided. However, melee damage is typically very consistent and has very high damage potential.

Spellcasting requires mana, and is thus in limited supply. For the hybrid classes it's also typically both expensive and unreliable, due to high failure rates. However, the damage is very consistent (always hitting, and most high-level spells do flat damage), and you can avoid melee range.

Magic devices require inventory slots for the items, the items have limited charges, and when you try to recharge them they may explode. However, it's otherwise completely free, ranged, and the damage can be very high if you have good magic device skill.

Missile attacks require ammo, and thus put constraints on your inventory. They also don't always hit, can't shoot over intervening enemies, and have a lower maximum range than other ranged attacks (limited by your launcher, and hit rate goes down slightly with distance). However, they have the highest potential damage per unit time of any attack, thanks to branding and +shots, they let you avoid melee range, and they require no mana to use.

If you're going to focus your offense on any one of these four sources of damage, then you'll need to make concessions. Melee users need to emphasize CON and AC more, and can't wield weapons that have poor damage. Spellcasters need high INT to increase their mana pools. Magic device users have to devote several slots to their wands. And missile users have to devote several slots to their ammo.

I don't see why this is unbalanced.
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Old May 28, 2012, 16:13   #15
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How about ammo not be sold in town. Then there would be no need to constrain the quiver. I originally posted that jokingly, but actually like the idea a little after having read it. Certainly not for V.
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Old May 28, 2012, 16:47   #16
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Originally Posted by Derakon View Post
The maximum stack size for any item is now 40 instead of 99. This only usually affects ammo, but it applies to all item types. The goal was to nerf the quiver, which was intended to make carrying small ammo stacks worthwhile, not to make you able to carry arbitrary amounts of ammo.
The problem now is that it makes it worse for low level characters who could use one slot to carry 99 0,0 arrows. Now that needs three slots. The quiver + new stack size actually causes the loss of two slots for starting characters who rely on bows. In fact early bow heavy characters who are not town diving could take two 99 stacks, this would now take up five slots which is a bit silly.

Late game it doesn't mean anything because you are focused and just have 1-2 high in piles, one of acid and one of holy might, maybe one of demon/animal and just hunt accordingly. You don't carry all of them at the same time, simply with swap weapons. You may carry a boc of kill undead/dragon, or artifact of ele_imm, but you are not going to carry a half a dozen swaps, just 1-2 and use accordingly.
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Old May 28, 2012, 17:42   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CliffStamp View Post
Late game it doesn't mean anything because you are focused and just have 1-2 high in piles, one of acid and one of holy might, maybe one of demon/animal and just hunt accordingly. You don't carry all of them at the same time, simply with swap weapons. You may carry a boc of kill undead/dragon, or artifact of ele_imm, but you are not going to carry a half a dozen swaps, just 1-2 and use accordingly.
So what happens when you've used that stack of Holy Might ammo a bit and a bunch of the bolts have been lost, so you're down to only 10 bolts and they're still using a full inventory slot?

I agree that the early game has been nerfed, and I admit that's not something I'd thought about before now. I'm inclined to say that the early game was generally too easy anyway, so making it harder is not a bad thing -- but then again, I like the status quo, so I'm biased.
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Old May 28, 2012, 18:05   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CliffStamp View Post
The problem now is that it makes it worse for low level characters who could use one slot to carry 99 0,0 arrows. Now that needs three slots. The quiver + new stack size actually causes the loss of two slots for starting characters who rely on bows. In fact early bow heavy characters who are not town diving could take two 99 stacks, this would now take up five slots which is a bit silly.

Late game it doesn't mean anything because you are focused and just have 1-2 high in piles, one of acid and one of holy might, maybe one of demon/animal and just hunt accordingly. You don't carry all of them at the same time, simply with swap weapons. You may carry a boc of kill undead/dragon, or artifact of ele_imm, but you are not going to carry a half a dozen swaps, just 1-2 and use accordingly.
But early game characters are not nearly as worried about inv space as late game characters - they haven't found much yet. So while I accept the point that carrying ~200 arrows on your first trip now takes 2.5x as many slots as before, I'm not sure this is a real problem. By the time your inv is full you've used lots of them anyway, and are perfectly happy to drop the rest to make space before recalling, knowing that they're cheap as chips and always available in town.

Late game I think you are still working on the basis that pretty much unlimited enchants were available for chars to combine arrows into neat high stacks. This isn't true any more (enchants are not sold in town), and the quiver enables you to carry your 6 arrows of slay undead (+5, +6) along with your 11 arrows of slay undead (+6, +8) and your 13 arrows of slay undead (+9, +4) in a single slot, instead of requiring three.
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Old May 28, 2012, 22:37   #19
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Originally Posted by Philip View Post
Yeah, but you did damage at range and presumably a lot of it. If you want to use a lot of arrows, you'll have to use a lot of inventory slots. That's just the way it works.
Actually, no, I did not. I used almost all of those against a mold. That's why it is so ridiculous.

And re "that's just the way it works," that should not BE the way it works. It is silly to redesign and vastly weaken the entire quiver system because of the fights against two specific uniques.
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Old May 28, 2012, 23:02   #20
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Actually, no, I did not. I used almost all of those against a mold. That's why it is so ridiculous.
Ah, part of your problem here may be that I don't think v4 archery has been fixed damage-wise yet, so it's very weak. Ordinarily in extreme circumstances -- shooting at a Shimmering Mold (one step below Death Mold, 144 average HP) with an unenchanted x2 shortbow and unenchanted 1d4 arrows -- you'd need 29 arrows to kill the thing, of which 11 would break. There's simply no way that you could be losing 39 arrows to breakage in that situation.
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