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Old August 30, 2012, 22:49   #1
Mikko Lehtinen
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INT and WIS in Angband: A starting point for the discussion

If we are ever going to progress in making Intelligence and Wisdom more than just spell stats or dump stats, we need to come up with some definitions for them.

I don't think the stats really have any obvious definitions, and I don't want to argue about them.

Instead, I propose that all interested parties, preferably including many Angband devs, write down their definitions of Intelligence and Wisdom secretly. Don't talk among yourselves!

I'm not necessarily looking for real world definitions but ones that you think would suit Angband best.

On 5th of September everybody will post their definitions, as written on the secret note, on a new thread called "INT and WIS definitions". Whoever happens to be the first person here may start the thread.

I'd like any discussion and analysis to be held in new threads, so as to keep the original definitions thread easier to analyse.

Good idea? (Please don't tell what you think about the stats yet!)
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Old August 30, 2012, 23:35   #2
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By "would suit Angband best" do you mean "describes the current state of Angband" or "describes my personal vision for the future of Angband"?
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Old August 31, 2012, 04:04   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ekolis View Post
By "would suit Angband best" do you mean "describes the current state of Angband" or "describes my personal vision for the future of Angband"?
The latter. That's why I chose the v4 forum.
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Old August 31, 2012, 04:29   #4
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Many kinds of game effects can go just as easily under INT or WIS or both. Having some info on people's personal definitions might help designers.

I'd say definitions that give clearly separate roles for the stats are most useful. Intuitive definitions of INT and WIS tend to overlap a whole lot, and a stricter definition of the terms would help. Of course you may disagree with me. You are free to write example game effects, too.

You are free to suggest alternative names that describe the role of the stats better, too. But for this experiment I'd like you to keep the "spirit" and perhaps the tradition (if you like) of the originals in mind.

I don't want to affect your definitions but I feel I had to say something about the purpose of the experiment.

Last edited by Mikko Lehtinen; August 31, 2012 at 08:45.
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Old August 31, 2012, 14:52   #5
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IMHO three stats are enough, so unite str+con, int+wis, and throw away cha. Then dex will be of low importance, so increase it's value , e.g. shoots/blows per round should depend on it.
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Old August 31, 2012, 15:28   #6
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That's one way, sure. I wouldn't unite STR & CON, though. I remember being told by Angband devs that they're both extremely good.

I'd still like to hear people's definitions of INT and WIS before jumping into conclusions. Maybe there's a way to make them interesting while staying at least somewhat true to Angband tradition? Slight renaming could help too? Or should we get all radical? I'm not sure.

I'm willing to let CHR go, though.
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Old August 31, 2012, 22:50   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mikko Lehtinen View Post
I'd still like to hear people's definitions of INT and WIS before jumping into conclusions. Maybe there's a way to make them interesting while staying at least somewhat true to Angband tradition? Slight renaming could help too? Or should we get all radical? I'm not sure.

I'm willing to let CHR go, though.
Making them interesting depends less on their definitions than on the amount of game content that uses them (I realise that the two are related though).

The main problem at the moment is that there are very few things in the game that use mental stats: spellcasting/mana, devices, saving throw and, er, disarming.

To make them as interesting as physical stats we would need to introduce a lot more mental activity into the game (see variants with psionics). We could, for example, make ESP a function of mental stats (which could be boosted by items rather than provided by them). Ditto trap detection. Perhaps curse detection on items.
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Old August 31, 2012, 23:40   #8
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Hmm, interesting... I'd suggest pseudo-ID as another thing that could use mental stats, but since the switch to pretty much exclusive ID-by-use, I guess that's kind of irrelevant now!
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Old September 1, 2012, 05:23   #9
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It's easy to come up with new game effects. But if both of the the stats can be be defined as "practical fast thinking", no one will come up with good effects. That's why I'd like to have real, distinct definitions. D&D has had pretty good definitions since the 3rd edition so that it can have logical skill bonuses but we don't have to follow the same route.

Bonus to AC, disarming, stealth, lock picking, searching, mapping, alchemy, religion, monster lore, combat tactics, scroll lore, dungeon lore, ambush sense, willpower in psychic combats, trapping, critical hits, initiative, crafting skills, mana, spell success rate, learning new spells, repairing items, bonus to hit.

With my intuitive definitions I could put any of these under either INT or WIS or both...
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Old September 2, 2012, 20:11   #10
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There doesn't seem to be much interest in talking about the roles of INT and WIS in the game. That's okay. I'm still going to post my own definitions on Wednesday.

I'm very interested in thinking how to make INT and WIS more relevant for every class. I did it in Halls of Mist, but I'd like to try to come up with some ideas that suit Angband better.

I honestly have no idea what you all think INT and WIS mean. What kind of a person is a warrior with high INT but low WIS? I was hoping to get some sense of other peoples' definitions, maybe to detect some shared assumptions.

For me CRPG design begins from clear definitions for stats. Then you make up game effects that fit the definition and flavour of the stats as well as possible. Maybe I'm alone in this?

Look what's happened with DEX and STR. Since the stats had so clear intuitive definitions, Derakon could create a flavourful combat system around the stats. Something similar might happen with INT and WIS.
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