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Old September 11, 2013, 01:40   #31
DaviddesJ
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Derakon View Post
This logic is faulty for the same reason that argument we had about no-selling being optional ("If you don't like selling things, just don't take them back to town") is faulty. People -- lots of people -- will play the game in horribly boring and un-fun ways if they perceive those ways to be the optimal way to play the game. Making certain that the optimal way to play the game is also a fun way to play the game is something like 95% of balancing singleplayer games.
Well, I don't agree with your logic. I don't think the problem of people playing in "optimal" but unfun ways, is real. The optimal way to play is to stay on level 1 until you find every item you might possibly want to beat Morgoth. Everything can be found there with some probability, it just would take a million years. But people don't actually do it.

But, even under your logic, the problem is that the new system creates a new "optimal" way to play, i.e., don't ever go below level 3 until you've accumulated at least a stack of 40 Mushrooms of Vigor, just in case you might need them later. And, once you have enough, then you don't have to worry about stat drain at all (except to go back to your house to get one whenever you get drained). This optimal way of playing seems even more unfun than the old optimal way of playing.
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Old September 11, 2013, 02:20   #32
Derakon
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You're being deliberately obtuse, and I can just tell that this is going to turn into yet another pedantic and horribly sloggish argument thread, so this is going to be my last post here.

Many people have stated on these forums that they find no-selling liberating because they no longer have to do boring-but-advantageous actions. By your logic, "optimal" play under the with-selling rules would be to scum dlvl6 for salable wands until you have several million AU and no longer have to worry about gold. I would have thought it obvious that this is not what those players (who rejoiced when no-selling became an option) were doing, and similarly I would have thought it obvious that optimal play under the new stat-drain model does not involve scumming for 40 mushrooms of vigor right from the start of the game. But apparently these things have to be said, so let me line out what I mean by "optimal play".

Optimal play under the old stat-drain system: when you get drained, return to town. Scum the town for stat-restore items.

Optimal play under the new stat-drain system: when you get drained, evaluate: are you so badly reduced that you need to [return to town and] consume a mushroom of vigor from the stash you have collected through normal play up to now? If so, do so; otherwise, continue with drained stats.
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Old September 11, 2013, 09:53   #33
DaviddesJ
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Derakon View Post
You're being deliberately obtuse
Maybe my ideas are stupid, but they are actually what I think. I'm not being deliberately obtuse.

If a player really can't stand to take even a single step at depth with drained stats, so that they "have to" return to town immediately whenever that happens, then why wouldn't that same player "have to" go scum a low level for mushrooms in the new system? If that's really their motivation, they are still going to do that, and so you've replaced something tedious with something even more tedious.

Quote:
Many people have stated on these forums that they find no-selling liberating because they no longer have to do boring-but-advantageous actions.
People like no-selling because they get the same results they would have gotten anyway, while deleting some tedious parts of the game. So that's a pure win.

The "new stat drain model" isn't like that. It's missing the positive part. It's like having no-selling without the extra gold. And it creates a new situation that's even more tedious than what it replaces.

Last edited by DaviddesJ; September 11, 2013 at 10:01.
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Old September 12, 2013, 01:12   #34
Malak Darkhunter
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Birth_no_selling option is awesome .. Love just not having to lug things around the dungeon to bring back to town to sell.

New stat drain model from V 3.3.2 -3.50 is great at low levels , highly aggravating at high levels. My main beef with that is stat restore potions being eliminated entirely from the game.

The main idea seems to be to make the town boring and the dungeon more interesting, I'm an old player, so stat restore potions just seem natural to me, so for me it's a hard change to get used to.
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Old September 12, 2013, 03:44   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Malak Darkhunter View Post
Birth_no_selling option is awesome .. Love just not having to lug things around the dungeon to bring back to town to sell.

New stat drain model from V 3.3.2 -3.50 is great at low levels , highly aggravating at high levels. My main beef with that is stat restore potions being eliminated entirely from the game.

The main idea seems to be to make the town boring and the dungeon more interesting, I'm an old player, so stat restore potions just seem natural to me, so for me it's a hard change to get used to.
We were chatting on IRC about this and we're going to tweak Shrooms of Vigor to start appearing later but be found easier. Hopefully that should balance it out a bit.
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Old September 12, 2013, 06:48   #36
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You could just have all drained stats recover whenever you return to town. That would eliminate the need for "scumming". There should also be a reasonable way to do it without returning, of course. The old model worked fine for that, you could find enough restore potions just lying around. It shouldn't become harder than that.
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Old September 12, 2013, 10:03   #37
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I've played quite a few games in 3.4.1 (not v4) and I don't remember even once having problems with drained stats. I have even stopped collecting mushrooms because I knew I wouldn't ever need them. There are no restore potions anymore but stat and augmentation potions also restore your stats and they are everywhere. Both systems old and new one are flawed with not enough punishment to the player. Drain timer is not going to solve this (Shift+R)
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Old September 12, 2013, 23:24   #38
Malak Darkhunter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DaviddesJ View Post
You could just have all drained stats recover whenever you return to town. That would eliminate the need for "scumming". There should also be a reasonable way to do it without returning, of course. The old model worked fine for that, you could find enough restore potions just lying around. It shouldn't become harder than that.
That would make things too easy, and stat drain attacks almost a waste of time
as well as having "too many" stat potions lying around.

I Like the idea of stat draining being on a timer..It effects you for lets say 1000 turns and then it goes away..the player is healed.
you have a few choices in this matter...you could wait it out, or you could attempt to keep slugging away on the level, or if the stat drain attack is bad enough you would have to hide out and sneak around for awhile.

of course the work around is to simply head back to town for 1000 turns yet if you do, you have to leave that vault you where trying to finish...
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Old September 13, 2013, 07:00   #39
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Bring more punishment to the player, sustains would mean more with permanent stat drain. At least occasionally like nexus or chaos have additional effects. That would result in Vigor being obsolete to Augmentation, so no more scumming low levels. Maybe that effect would have to be reserved only for strong monsters to keep low level characters healthy.
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Old September 13, 2013, 09:22   #40
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Simple solution - all stat drain is permanent. Advantages:
  • Simplifies code
  • Much needed buff to Time Hounds
  • All the previous arguments just go away

For bonus points, same system for XP drain.

You know it makes sense.
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