Angband.oook.cz
Angband.oook.cz
AboutVariantsLadderForumCompetitionComicScreenshotsFunniesLinks

Go Back   Angband Forums > Angband > Variants

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old January 27, 2009, 06:58   #1
Malak Darkhunter
Knight
 
Malak Darkhunter's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: US
Age: 40
Posts: 720
Malak Darkhunter is on a distinguished road
Sangband and spell realms

Okay playing around with the spell realms in Sangband I noticed that once you pick a realm of magic you cannot learn spells from any other realm. But I have to ask, is this fair? The whole game is about customizing different skills,why limit a players options? I might for instance want to combine the realms of wizardry with necromancy, or maybe create a druid priest as in a priest worshipping a nature goddess sort of way. Also at one time I tried to create a type of Blackguard type character, a fighter with strong necromatic spells, but the limit on spell level without taking an oath proved to be a bummer, I ended up with a weaker character than I had imagined. Wouldn't Sang be a little more true to form without all these limitations?
Malak Darkhunter is offline   Reply With Quote
Old January 27, 2009, 12:17   #2
CJNyfalt
Swordsman
 
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 289
CJNyfalt is on a distinguished road
I would agree, but we are probably in a minority.
The hardcore players usually discuss methods of limiting the skill selection even more.
CJNyfalt is offline   Reply With Quote
Old January 27, 2009, 15:21   #3
Malak Darkhunter
Knight
 
Malak Darkhunter's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: US
Age: 40
Posts: 720
Malak Darkhunter is on a distinguished road
Sangband is supposed to be class-less, but I find that that's not true, it's still follows the same basic classes of the other bands, with the exception of maybe a few different titles. You develope burgarly skills, your called a rogue, piety skills a priest excetra. I understand the need to limit some things for balance issues, but when it comes to skills and spell realms the limitations need be removed, otherwise sang is still following a pre-constructed class based skill set.
Malak Darkhunter is offline   Reply With Quote
Old February 9, 2009, 21:02   #4
Magnate
Angband Devteam member
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: London, UK
Posts: 5,054
Magnate is on a distinguished road
Send a message via MSN to Magnate Send a message via Yahoo to Magnate Send a message via Skype™ to Magnate
Quote:
Originally Posted by Malak Darkhunter View Post
Sangband is supposed to be class-less, but I find that that's not true, it's still follows the same basic classes of the other bands, with the exception of maybe a few different titles. You develope burgarly skills, your called a rogue, piety skills a priest excetra. I understand the need to limit some things for balance issues, but when it comes to skills and spell realms the limitations need be removed, otherwise sang is still following a pre-constructed class based skill set.
First, Sang's author (Leon Marrick) has specifically said that he has balanced the game for characters with 6 to 10 skills, and that he has no sympathy for those playing with more.

That said, I'm an all-skill player too, though it causes terrible inventory problems.

I don't agree that Sang is following class strictures though. Of course it's possible to play as any of the six regular V classes - there would be an outcry if it wasn't - but it's also possible to play any number of other permutations: the O classes, martial artists, other-realm assassins/rogues/rangers, forgers etc etc.

CC
Magnate is offline   Reply With Quote
Old February 9, 2009, 21:36   #5
camlost
Sangband 1.x Maintainer
 
camlost's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 522
camlost is on a distinguished road
I also would like to see this change, but I don't think Leon is interested in such a change, so I'm unlikely to spend time working to support it.

There are certainly some limitations on characters that the game enforces. I like to think that overall, they enhance the balance of the game rather than eliminating choice. There are still plenty of good spells to choose from with a blackguard, no?

Quote:
otherwise sang is still following a pre-constructed class based skill set.
I disagree. In what variant can you play a rogue/priest like character? Who, in the late game becomes amazing with magic devices? There are always going to be a finite number of "combinations" in any game. That a few are artificially pruned is not a big deal.

Honestly, though, I expect that most of the pruning is for flavor reasons, and I am working on reducing the amount of pruning.

----- Offtopic ahead! ----

In the next version I release (date unknown), there will be a hard cap at power 100. I think that this will encourage characters to specialize sufficiently. I personally see no problem in winning the game with either of these skill sets. Some builds will require a wider array of skills than others, but sacrifice potency, which is fine.

Code:
power=93, 4 skills
Jousting          : 100%
Spell Resistance  : 100%
Weaponsmithing    : 100%
Armor Forging     : 100%

-or-

power=94, 13 skills
Swordsmanship     :  66%    (max 69%)
Clubbing          :  67%    (max 70%)
Jousting          :  95%    (max 100%)
Archery - Xbows   : 100%
Archery - Bows    :  49%    (max 52%)
Nature Lore       :  71%    (max 75%)
Magical Device    :  50%
Perception        :  82%
Stealth           :  86%
Disarming         :  68%    (max 70%)
Dodging           :  92%
Spell Resistance  :  92%
Armor Forging     :  99%    (max 100%)
__________________
a chunk of Bronze {These look tastier than they are. !E}
3 blank Parchments (Vellum) {No french novels please.}
camlost is offline   Reply With Quote
Old February 10, 2009, 20:05   #6
Magnate
Angband Devteam member
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: London, UK
Posts: 5,054
Magnate is on a distinguished road
Send a message via MSN to Magnate Send a message via Yahoo to Magnate Send a message via Skype™ to Magnate
Quote:
Originally Posted by camlost View Post
I also would like to see this change, but I don't think Leon is interested in such a change, so I'm unlikely to spend time working to support it.
Sadly I think you're right, though I think it would be a positive change. After all, using two spell realms comes at a considerable cost: two realm stats to pump, and two sets of books to carry. 14 inv slots on books, anyone?? If anyone thinks that this is not enough (say, because you'd only really carry six to eight), you could always dynamically adjust the costs of Spellcasting and Magical Power based on the number of realms ...
Quote:
In the next version I release (date unknown), there will be a hard cap at power 100. I think that this will encourage characters to specialize sufficiently.
There were several threads last year discussing various options for discouraging excessive numbers of skills, and this was not one I supported. But I have always admired and enjoyed your versions of the game, so I hope this will be no exception. If you do implement this solution, please bear one thing in mind: players will need to be able to plan their builds. So you'll need to write an entire calculator which takes the character's current skill levels (no going back), and allows them to play with permutations of future skill levels, all the way up to power 100.

The mathematics linking skill levels to power level are sufficiently complex that most people could not do this planning without assistance. Without such a calculator, I fear that I for one will be unable to enjoy this new version.

CC
Magnate is offline   Reply With Quote
Old February 10, 2009, 20:59   #7
camlost
Sangband 1.x Maintainer
 
camlost's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 522
camlost is on a distinguished road
Quote:
So you'll need to write an entire calculator which takes the character's current skill levels (no going back), and allows them to play with permutations of future skill levels, all the way up to power 100.
Or I could just let people decrement skills (no getting the XP back, though). It's thematically less pleasant, but I can't think of a good way to handling the calculations in an easy fashion.

Quote:
you could always dynamically adjust the costs of Spellcasting and Magical Power based on the number of realms ...
Honestly, if I were redoing this, I'd probably roll the cost of Spellcasting into the individual realm skills and use that, but that's probably just laziness talking. Either that or invert the uses and costs of "Spellcasting" and the realm skills. I'd really want to support asymmetric casters (i.e. mostly priest with some nature ability)
__________________
a chunk of Bronze {These look tastier than they are. !E}
3 blank Parchments (Vellum) {No french novels please.}
camlost is offline   Reply With Quote
Old February 11, 2009, 14:17   #8
Magnate
Angband Devteam member
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: London, UK
Posts: 5,054
Magnate is on a distinguished road
Send a message via MSN to Magnate Send a message via Yahoo to Magnate Send a message via Skype™ to Magnate
Quote:
Originally Posted by camlost View Post
Or I could just let people decrement skills (no getting the XP back, though). It's thematically less pleasant, but I can't think of a good way to handling the calculations in an easy fashion.
Hmm. You've got me quite interested in this now. I was thinking of a screen that looks exactly like the XP screen only with "XP Calculator" across the top. On that screen you can put skills up and down without spending any xp, and see the effect on your total power. I expect we could re-use most of the code from the existing xp screen, with a hack to avoid spending xp and a little bit added to show total power (which IIRC isn't shown until you exit the xp screen).

If you do implement this cap, I might have a look at implementing the calculator.
Quote:
Honestly, if I were redoing this, I'd probably roll the cost of Spellcasting into the individual realm skills and use that, but that's probably just laziness talking. Either that or invert the uses and costs of "Spellcasting" and the realm skills. I'd really want to support asymmetric casters (i.e. mostly priest with some nature ability)
Ooh yes, that last is an excellent idea, except that it does rather knacker warriors collecting talents. But I fully support the idea of asymmetric casters.

Now, in case Mr Darkhunter is still reading, I lay awake last night running through these in my head:

Sangband 'class' options

First we have the warrior and the four pure casters (mage, priest, druid, necro).
Then we have the four classic semi-casters (rogue, paladin, ranger, assassin).
These are the nine classes available in O, six of whom are in V.

The four semi-casters immediately suggest two new base archetypes: the thief (spell-less rogue/assassin) and the archer (spell-less ranger, who in S can specialise in slings or xbows or even throwing, not just bows). So we now have seven base classes, which offers us a total of 12 semi-casters. The other eight are:

Warrior-mage
Warrior-druid (shaman?)
Warrior-necro (chaos knight)
Arcane Archer
Holy Archer
Dark Archer
Thief-druid (stalker)
Thief-priest (monk?)

Then there are the Warrior-thief (ninja), Archer-thief and Warrior-archer. So we're at 7 base classes and 15 dual classes so far - but Sang offers us two other specialisms: the forger and the zapper. (Yes, you can win S with magic devices alone.) Each of these pairs with the other base classes for a total of 30 dual classes, or 39 options in total.

From those 39 only the archer-zapper seems a completely redundant pairing, though the current oath structure mitigates against a pure forger (and a few of the others could be considered challenge builds). Still, that leaves a lot of interesting combinations. Allowing two-realm casters would add precisely six more, so I don't think their absence can be said to limit the game to "a pre-constructed class-based skill set". Then there are the 84 triple-class combinations, 50 of which don't involve more than one spell realm ...

Having said that, I'd be the first to agree that the Oath arrangements could be improved, and I think Leon has acknowledged that too.

CC
Magnate is offline   Reply With Quote
Old February 11, 2009, 21:42   #9
Malak Darkhunter
Knight
 
Malak Darkhunter's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: US
Age: 40
Posts: 720
Malak Darkhunter is on a distinguished road
I'm trying this again, just to get a fresh perspective on what irritated me last time I tried this build. I'm currently putting a lot of skill points into swordsmanship, necromancy, spellcasting, magical power, magic device, perception, disarming, spell resistance, and a little into stealth. I think what turned me off last time was the level cap and the oaths, I did not want to take any oaths, I wanted to solely invest skill points into what I wanted to learn, having to take a oath to advance a skill blocked me from what I was trying to achieve. I guess you can call my character a "Renegade" sort of like the wizards of dragonlance, who do not owe their allegiance to any realm. I could not get to the more powerful spells that would have made a difference in the game, what I was left with was a character who had a few descent offensive spells at the begining of the game to a character who was weak in spellpower toward the middle of the game, because of level cap on advancing a spell realm without taking an oath of necromancy to advance. I did not aim to make a necromancer to begin with, but I expected to at least raise a skill up to about 75 in necromancy so my character would have some great offensive spells in the latter game, I'm perfectly okay with not being able to learn the most powerful spells, those are reserved for the true spellcasters.
Maybe the level cap on spellrealms without taking oaths need to be bumped up a bit. Once I reached the level cap, I sort of felt like I was wasting my time, because I had reached a roadblock, and should have either just made a warrior, or a true necromancer instead.
Malak Darkhunter is offline   Reply With Quote
Old February 12, 2009, 21:43   #10
Magnate
Angband Devteam member
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: London, UK
Posts: 5,054
Magnate is on a distinguished road
Send a message via MSN to Magnate Send a message via Yahoo to Magnate Send a message via Skype™ to Magnate
To Joshua: I just thought of something - will the hard cap include 'bonus' points in similar skills? This wouldn't be too bad for the burglary suite (most of which are desirable), but would be a definite nerf for weapon-using builds. If I'm faced with a hard cap of 100 power, I want to be able to refuse the not-very-helpful 'bonus' points in my non-preferred weapon skills.

FWIW, my expectation was always that any hard cap on number of skills would ignore these - so e.g. you could have one weapon skill and five others and count as playing with six skills.

CC
Magnate is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
SAngband Wisp Variants 5 November 23, 2008 08:11
Basic Questions: Ball Spell + List Items kicker Vanilla 4 November 16, 2008 21:35
Spell effect ideas that should be in some variant Jude Variants 7 July 13, 2008 17:57
Mage spell Detect Invisible should detect visible as well. Zero Vanilla 4 January 4, 2008 00:10
Sangband Bat Spell Cyrlous Variants 2 December 15, 2007 05:03


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 21:28.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.