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Old March 26, 2012, 23:36   #21
Magnate
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nppangband View Post
I can fully understand not agreeing with or caring for what I posted or my occasional rants, but I would like to request that statement be acknowledged as a bit off. Only because I don't think Angband is awful and I most certainly haven't singled out Takkaria, his efforts or anyone elses, and I would hate for the impression to be lingering out there. What I do think is that Angband isn't quite Angband any more. It is D_MBand/MagnateBand/FixxixBand/TakkariaBand and many other ***Bands, all rolled up into one. All are fine individual efforts, but because they are all combined together in one place things are getting pretty messy.
Sure. You've said that before, and I don't really disagree with it (I would love there to be a unifying force but there isn't) - it's just that you said it a lot more angrily this time ;-)

I wasn't accusing you of singling out takkaria btw, just noting the start and nature of the period with which you're discontent.
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Also, I think the general roguelike community has moved on to other things, and they aren't coming back unless the UI is improved regardless of the feature changes you all have done.
This is a fair cop - the basic problem is that we have no real UI people on the devteam, so it gets neglected. Blubaron has done sterling work though, so I hope you and Nick will build on that.
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Please bear in mind that NPP has many more lines of code that involve flags, since all aspects of terrain are handled by flags as well (some of which uses up alot of processor time, such as re-calculating LOS, lines of movement, movement, and lines of fire every time something changes. Those three things are separate in NPP). So bitflags in NPP would have been a bigger job.
Yes, I accept that. V will doubtless eventually use flag-based terrain (ticket #581), and hopefully in a way which is compatible with NPP. But I do wonder if the age-old dream of bringing good stuff from variants back to V gets impossibly hard once the variant has matured/diverged beyond a certain extent. After all, the last thing we imported was the monster pain messages which, according to at least one observer, were the start of the message ordering problems!
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Old March 26, 2012, 23:51   #22
CunningGabe
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Magnate View Post
But I do wonder if the age-old dream of bringing good stuff from variants back to V gets impossibly hard once the variant has matured/diverged beyond a certain extent.
I think this is spot on. For most pairs of variants (including V), the best way to bring good stuff from one to the other is probably to look at the ideas and the broad code structure, and then write the code from scratch to suit your variant's structure and sensibilities. Porting over code directly for anything but relatively minor changes is very challenging and not very satisfying.
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Old March 26, 2012, 23:57   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Magnate View Post

After all, the last thing we imported was the monster pain messages which, according to at least one observer, were the start of the message ordering problems!
I didn't know about that. What is happening? Feel free to post a link to another thread or ticket, and I might be able to figure out what is going on.

I did have to fix a couple things in NPP after I did that patch for vanilla, mostly monsters being counted twice for the same pain message in project_m. The codebases are so different at this point, I wouldn't know where to look or if my fixes would even apply to Vanilla.
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Old March 27, 2012, 00:09   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CunningGabe View Post
I think this is spot on. For most pairs of variants (including V), the best way to bring good stuff from one to the other is probably to look at the ideas and the broad code structure, and then write the code from scratch to suit your variant's structure and sensibilities. Porting over code directly for anything but relatively minor changes is very challenging and not very satisfying.
Hmmm. Git is supposed to make this a lot easier, which is why I was musing about the extent of divergence. I bet it would be a great help for any variant forking from V now (like PowerWyrm's, say), but way less for older variants like NPP. (Note that Sil, although recently released, is based on an old version of V.) I *think* this is why Nick put so much effort into updating FA ... ;-)
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Old March 27, 2012, 00:21   #25
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Originally Posted by Antoine View Post
Presumably many who would have played FA are now playing Sil
A.
It could very well be, but I hope that isn't true. The idea that the Angband community can't sustain interest for more than one or two variants at a time is troubling.

When NPP was at the peak of its popularity (NPP 3.x and 4.x), it was either the most popular variant du jour, or second most popular (TOME at that point could either be considered the most popular variant, or a standalone game that had taken on a life of its own). Around that time, Zangband was starting to fade, but was still quite heavily played. Oangband also had a strong following, as did Sangband. All were being actively played and discussed non-stop. There were several others that got frequent mention (DRAngband, POSBand, Hengband, UNAngband, etc....), and I am going by memory and I am doubtless missing a couple others. And of course Angband was the most played of all.

That was around the time steamband was released. It caused a sensation similar to what sil is doing right now. Even though everybody gave it a try, the other variants never got shut out. I would hate to think that even a smoking-hot variant like sil could possibly have the power to make all of the others invisible.
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Old March 27, 2012, 00:24   #26
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Originally Posted by Magnate View Post
Hmmm. Git is supposed to make this a lot easier, which is why I was musing about the extent of divergence. I bet it would be a great help for any variant forking from V now (like PowerWyrm's, say), but way less for older variants like NPP.
The Angband code has changed so much, it is barely useable to me. And I guess vice-versa if the messages patch I did is causing so much trouble.

Angband may as well be written in python now. {see derakon's thread}
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Old March 27, 2012, 00:28   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nppangband View Post
I didn't know about that. What is happening? Feel free to post a link to another thread or ticket, and I might be able to figure out what is going on.

I did have to fix a couple things in NPP after I did that patch for vanilla, mostly monsters being counted twice for the same pain message in project_m. The codebases are so different at this point, I wouldn't know where to look or if my fixes would even apply to Vanilla.
Indeed. I don't think Nick is right that the message oddities are traceable back to that patch anyway - ISTR some from before that, such as "The foo dies. The foo is no longer confused.". Not to worry, it's way past time I refactored project_m anyway .... ;-)
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Old March 27, 2012, 00:29   #28
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Originally Posted by nppangband View Post
The Angband code has changed so much, it is barely useable to me. And I guess vice-versa if the messages patch I did is causing so much trouble.

Angband may as well be written in python now. {see derakon's thread}
Oh gods, don't expect anything to come from that thread. Seriously, don't. I generate theorycrafting and design ideas as a hobby. Almost none of them are followed through on.
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Old March 27, 2012, 00:32   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nppangband View Post
That was around the time steamband was released. It caused a sensation similar to what sil is doing right now. Even though everybody gave it a try, the other variants never got shut out. I would hate to think that even a smoking-hot variant like sil could possibly have the power to make all of the others invisible.
I don't think it does. I think a lot of other things have changed - the number of players of roguelikes might have gone down a fair bit in these days of facebook games and angry birds, and the number of roguelikes has gone up a lot in the intervening years. I think it's just dilution really - angband variants are now competing not against each other but against all the Brogues and 7DRLs and so on and so on.
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Old March 27, 2012, 01:15   #30
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Originally Posted by nppangband View Post
It could very well be, but I hope that isn't true. The idea that the Angband community can't sustain interest for more than one or two variants at a time is troubling.

... I would hate to think that even a smoking-hot variant like sil could possibly have the power to make all of the others invisible.
I don't say that Sil is generally cannibalising all attention from other variants: I just think that the kind of person who wants to play FA is particularly likely to be the kind of person who wants to play Sil.

(Note: I love First Age Tolkien mythos and think both FA and Sil are very cool)

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