Angband.oook.cz
Angband.oook.cz
AboutVariantsLadderForumCompetitionComicScreenshotsFunniesLinks

Go Back   Angband Forums > Angband > Sil

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old September 17, 2021, 19:22   #31
Infinitum
Swordsman
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Posts: 292
Infinitum is on a distinguished road
Well, I did suggets it sort of. Most combat bruisers want some stealth for Opportunist and not activating too much of the level at once, and it does prevent pulling sleeping monsters by bow. And it makes dealing with dragons much, much more dangerous since at the very least they get another turn to entrance or breathe. Grace is also nowhere near as strong as extra melee/evasion or hp, and the Will tree has a lot of competing abilities for combat characters.
Infinitum is offline   Reply With Quote
Old September 19, 2021, 01:30   #32
bron
Knight
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Saratoga, California (in the midst of Silicon Valley)
Posts: 511
bron is on a distinguished road
Sorry for the delay in responding to this.

What do I like about smithing? Mostly, I think it's about building up the character, step by step. As you say, trading a harder middle game for an easier end game. You build the character via skills and abilities; smithing is like that in spades.

But it's also about building the character to be hugely powerful, to crush your enemies and see them driven before you. And not just because you got lucky and found Ringil or the Boots of Feanor, but because you personally and deliberately made those powerful items, via skill and hard work and sacrifice.

Nobody likes consuming inventory slots to carry smithing gear, but it's a choice, a trade-off. The potential to make something wonderful by sacrificing inventory in the present.

In current sil-q, it is easier to make modestly powered items. A Sword of Gondolin say. But nearly impossible to make really powerful items, mostly because you can't raise your smithing score to the levels needed. You can maybe use Masterpiece to make *one*, but that's just not a large enough payoff.

There don't seem to be any items that raise your Smithing score directly anymore, so you have to use +Grace items to supplement the points put into Smithing. At best, that's a Robe+2, Helm+1, Amulet+1, Lamp+1, and a Weapon+1. That's a reasonable set, but smithing costs are higher than they were, so it's not really enough. Plus several of these items require relatively high smithing scores to make them in the first place, which means you have to put a lot of points into Smithing in order to make them, and you can't really afford that until later in the game, which in turn means you have less opportunity to make that investment pay off.

At this point, I'm going to make some highly speculative and totally untested statements about what would make Smithing more interesting and fun for me personally. Take them for what they're worth: I'd like to see more Smithing actions, which means more forges, which in turn means making each forging action be less significant. One possible way to do this would be to dispense with "Artifice", and make each of the choices in the Artifact menus be an Enchantment, and allow multiple Enchantments to be put on the same piece, one at a time, with increasing numbers of "forge uses" required for each additional Enchantment, and probably an increased cost to Enchant an already Enchanted item. You could make a lot of simply Enchanted items, or just a few really powerful ones, or something in between. The work done on a piece early on the start would not be irrelevant, it would be a step toward the thing you ultimately want e.g. first you make a non-magical (+1,2d6) [+1] Longsword, then later you add (Defender), still later you brand it with poison, and finally just before going to face Morgoth you make it Sharp. Thus, the equipment progresses, just as the character progresses.
bron is offline   Reply With Quote
Old September 19, 2021, 11:58   #33
Quirk
Swordsman
 
Join Date: Mar 2016
Posts: 416
Quirk is on a distinguished road
Posted a long reply, forum ate it. Sorry if this is overly terse, am now low on time.

Quote:
What do I like about smithing? Mostly, I think it's about building up the character, step by step. As you say, trading a harder middle game for an easier end game. You build the character via skills and abilities; smithing is like that in spades.

But it's also about building the character to be hugely powerful, to crush your enemies and see them driven before you. And not just because you got lucky and found Ringil or the Boots of Feanor, but because you personally and deliberately made those powerful items, via skill and hard work and sacrifice.
This is the old "linear warriors, quadratic wizards". I like this too, because I like playing wizards. Unfortunately this makes the late game suck for routes that have more linear power gain, and pushes players to Smith as a route to higher scores whether they like Smithing or not.

Quote:
At this point, I'm going to make some highly speculative and totally untested statements about what would make Smithing more interesting and fun for me personally. Take them for what they're worth: I'd like to see more Smithing actions, which means more forges, which in turn means making each forging action be less significant. One possible way to do this would be to dispense with "Artifice", and make each of the choices in the Artifact menus be an Enchantment, and allow multiple Enchantments to be put on the same piece, one at a time, with increasing numbers of "forge uses" required for each additional Enchantment, and probably an increased cost to Enchant an already Enchanted item. You could make a lot of simply Enchanted items, or just a few really powerful ones, or something in between. The work done on a piece early on the start would not be irrelevant, it would be a step toward the thing you ultimately want e.g. first you make a non-magical (+1,2d6) [+1] Longsword, then later you add (Defender), still later you brand it with poison, and finally just before going to face Morgoth you make it Sharp. Thus, the equipment progresses, just as the character progresses.
This is a very interesting idea, though the flow you've described would be a little difficult in practice I feel. Jumping from defender to defender + poison, or poison to poison + sharp makes for a huge upgrade, and would be difficult not to make lumpy.

I did have a somewhat similar idea for a skill called Reforge, which would let you reshape an artifact into a slightly more powerful artifact of the same type. The old artifact powers would be lost though, so you might for example replace slaying orcs, wolves, dragons and raukar with flame brand.

However, this would require some reshuffling of Smithing power level again as I am not looking to make it head and shoulders the best late game choice, and looking at wobbly's ongoing Morgoth-killing run it's clear it's still possible to build some powerful gear as things stand. (FWIW I think wobbly's smithing on this run has Smithing in a place I am quite happy with it - most gear customised to fill niches the character needs without being dramatically better than normal end-game gear, plus an uberweapon).
Quirk is offline   Reply With Quote
Old September 19, 2021, 12:06   #34
Quirk
Swordsman
 
Join Date: Mar 2016
Posts: 416
Quirk is on a distinguished road
Quote:
Originally Posted by Infinitum View Post
Grace is also nowhere near as strong as extra melee/evasion or hp, and the Will tree has a lot of competing abilities for combat characters.
I would disagree with this. The ladder is mostly topped by Smithing and Song builds (Staff of Earthquakes/Channelling abuse aside, though this also was Grace-reliant). Grace is rarely as immediately impactful, but it tends to impact more non-linear ways of scaling up.
Quirk is offline   Reply With Quote
Old September 19, 2021, 14:32   #35
Infinitum
Swordsman
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Posts: 292
Infinitum is on a distinguished road
I wouldn't necessarily use the ladder as balance feedback. There's a handful at most people regularily logging runs, and a lot of those are for bragging rights. Also I don't agree that endgame smithing is overpowered; past 850' or so is comparatively trivial for any combat build.

In its current form smithing ha a problem in that more smithing skill gives linear dividends, but costs are whatever a (100+200+300...) sequence is called. Then again, even if you fix that there's still the bigger problem of crafting in games just not meshing well with random loot.
Infinitum is offline   Reply With Quote
Old September 19, 2021, 15:25   #36
fph
Knight
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Pisa / DL0
Posts: 991
fph is on a distinguished road
Quote:
Originally Posted by Infinitum View Post
whatever a (100+200+300...) sequence is called.
It's called "quadratic": indeed, 1+2+...+n = n^2/2 + O(n).
__________________
Dive fast, die young, leave a high-CHA corpse.
--
You read a scroll labeled 'lol gtfo' of Teleport Level.
fph is offline   Reply With Quote
Old September 19, 2021, 21:40   #37
HugoTheGreat2011
Veteran
 
HugoTheGreat2011's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: East Coast, U.S.
Age: 38
Posts: 1,164
HugoTheGreat2011 is on a distinguished road
I've killed off the Thrallmasters a number of times, then one or more Thralls become alert to what's happening...After the thrallmasters are dead, how do I interact with the Thralls? What gameplay purpose do they have now? Also, if I'm surrounded by the Thrallmaster and the Thralls at the same time, does that increase the Thrallmasters' ability to attack?
__________________
My best try at PosChengband 7.0.0's nightmare-mode on Angband.live:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rwAR0WOphUA

If I'm offline I'm probably in the middle of maintaining Gentoo or something-Linux or other

Last edited by HugoTheGreat2011; September 19, 2021 at 22:10.
HugoTheGreat2011 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old September 20, 2021, 01:49   #38
Quirk
Swordsman
 
Join Date: Mar 2016
Posts: 416
Quirk is on a distinguished road
Quote:
Originally Posted by Infinitum View Post
I wouldn't necessarily use the ladder as balance feedback. There's a handful at most people regularily logging runs, and a lot of those are for bragging rights. Also I don't agree that endgame smithing is overpowered; past 850' or so is comparatively trivial for any combat build.
Depends what you consider trivial or whether you are talking about current smithing or previous version smithing. Morgoth kills are predominantly smith based. In terms of being able to grab a Sil, most reasonable builds can thrive at 850' and after, combat or not.

With regard to the ladder entries I've been there for quite a number of the higher ranked ones on Angband.live. I think they are reasonably representative of strong play.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Infinitum View Post
IIn its current form smithing ha a problem in that more smithing skill gives linear dividends, but costs are whatever a (100+200+300...) sequence is called. Then again, even if you fix that there's still the bigger problem of crafting in games just not meshing well with random loot.
Costs may be 100+200+... but this is the same for every skill and the XP handed out is floor adjusted to compensate i.e. it is not linear either. Put together skill progress vs XP is more or less linear.

Smithing dividends are not however linear in the way that investing in Evasion is. The tipping point where most gear has extra Evasion bolted on is one non-linearity, extra stat points another. With smithing kits the rewards were very much more non-linear as getting to sufficiently high Smithing meant a snowball of stat points, resistances and weapon effects.

Anyway, I think in the post smithing kit world this non-linearity has been much reduced, and I am less scared of Song builds right now, though it is far from clear they need any extra help. I will think on this a bit and probably talk to a few players.

Last edited by Quirk; September 20, 2021 at 15:50.
Quirk is offline   Reply With Quote
Old September 20, 2021, 01:51   #39
Quirk
Swordsman
 
Join Date: Mar 2016
Posts: 416
Quirk is on a distinguished road
Quote:
Originally Posted by HugoTheGreat2011 View Post
I've killed off the Thrallmasters a number of times, then one or more Thralls become alert to what's happening...After the thrallmasters are dead, how do I interact with the Thralls? What gameplay purpose do they have now? Also, if I'm surrounded by the Thrallmaster and the Thralls at the same time, does that increase the Thrallmasters' ability to attack?
If you see an Alert thrall rather than a Dejected thrall, move into them and they will make a request of you. Alert thralls are a different, brighter green or a different tile.

Thrallmaster ability to attack is not influenced by thralls.
Quirk is offline   Reply With Quote
Old September 20, 2021, 11:00   #40
wobbly
Prophet
 
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Adelaide, Australia
Posts: 2,528
wobbly will become famous soon enough
+grace is very build dependant. If you are straight down the line melee/evasion its basically a pt of will. If you are using song of staying it doubles to +2 will plus extra voice. Same on a smith add the cost for a smithing pt. The perception kick is minor but if you rely on hunter, listen or concentration it's a minor small bonus.

By the way Quirk your post read as a little heated, not sure that was intended.
wobbly is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Sil-Q 1.5 beta, second release Quirk Sil 14 June 1, 2021 00:52
Sil-Q 1.5 beta, first release Quirk Sil 52 August 11, 2020 17:16
Sil-Q 1.4.1-beta release Quirk Sil 9 November 18, 2018 08:47
Angband 4.0 beta release Nick Vanilla 526 May 28, 2015 22:47
FuryBand 5.1 Beta Release The GP Fury Variants 31 February 23, 2013 07:27


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 19:24.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2021, vBulletin Solutions Inc.