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Old February 2, 2012, 08:21   #1
meJustmeNotyou
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I have returned... (warning, possible spoiler talk)

THIS MAY BE A DECENT READ FOR SOME OF YOU, EVEN IF LONG....

OK... a lonnnnng time ago, maybe 9 months ago, I set out to finish this game... i wound up deleting the game for computer reasons (and a death around level 15 or so), then, a brother got into the game and i along with him (he lives in a different house) and i decided to finish....

and i did... finally.... once i figured out i needed good resistances.... I'm not uploading a screen etc because I'm not suicided yet... not sure how deep i'll go but yeah, the game's pretty much over to me...

a few things i'd like to say...

do NOT take this as me being bitchy etc... i am going to list out a few things to possibly benefit everyone... take it as that, not a complaint list no matter how i talk....

1) experience became meaningless for my dunadan mage, around 3500' deep... this is actually a huge problem for the fun factor of the game as level advancement was thrown out the window for the latter/harder portion of the game...

I have decided that a possible fix could be (because numbers of monsters fought will vary so much between players and games)... the fix could be... making certain character level advancements (like level 41-50) require reaching certain depths... like need to reach 3500 feet to get to character level 41... etc....

the lack of experience meaning anything really took away a LOT of the fun for me once i maxed out... and some form of experience-diminisher/dungeon-depth requirement would handle this well I think... though the veterans would have to put some serious thought into how to handle it.

Experience/level gaining = pretty fun... it needs to be an entire game progress... not end at d-level 70 etc

2) the AI needs to be tweeked... make pathfinding much larger for certain monsters.... I say this because I beat the game by splash damaging morgoth with mana storms... all cuz I was 7 squares or something from him and he was too dumb to travel 1 extra square around a corner.... i believe he was confused because i was in a vault, and he was not....

I could refuse to pull such things but I'm a firm believer in not limiting myself just because a game has a drawback mentally...

the AI could use a serious tweek in the IQ department... all i'm saying

3) i think i ended the game with like, 10,000,000 gold or something... i'm not sure but if the gold coins were the size of an american little dime, i think i was carrying about 500,000 pounds on my back, the latter part of the game....

but oh my gosh did that extra 1 pound of armor slow me down...

you get what i'm getting at... this whole 500 thousand pounds of gold i'm lugging around (more i think even) is sort of ... dumb... it'd be good if somehow you could rethink the money system solely just to get rid of such a glaringly stupid part of the game...

no i'm not trying to be rude... just saying... it's time angband got slightly more real in this department...

4) round and round and round i go.... yeah... pillar dancing... i think i killed like, 1/4 the uniques by doing this.... and why wouldn't i? The alternative is having some guy summon 10 things, that will summon ten things... yeah... not gonna happen...

i think a work around for this temptation would be to redo the way time is done in the game... so that it's not so easy for a character to max out above almost everything else... enabling pillar dancing....

by maxing out speed to a level a TON of other uniques reach, you would no longer get the jump on the uniques and eliminate the ability to pillar dance...

this would need to be balanced by downgrading the ability for creatures to summon so many units... or, at least more great summoners...

the alternative is for me to, every time... run around and around and around...

seriously, i got dizzy....

5) ummmm.... sauron ... a genie coming out of a bottle? .... seriously? ... someone please alter that please because playing allllll that time just to have sauron be a stupid genie, was so untolkien and soooooooo anti climactic....

seriously way out of place...

6) i should have taken notes on all the errors in text or graphics representing totaly different text descriptions... i didn't though... next time i play... and there will be a next time... i will.... as i think it's every angbander's duty to help correct errors when they see them (especially if they aren't programming which, i'm not)...

7) i get the idea of "oh my gosh the thief stole a ton of my gold"... and letting us find him and take it back.... but.... this really makes thieves so less scary a thing to fight.... i think gold should disappear forever... in fact i know it's more fun/aggravating/tense that way.... currently, they are just a seriously mild nuisance

8) I think it would be possible... easily.... to do something along diablo 2 style...... and that... is once you finish the game, your character will restart, level 1, with all damage, hp's, armor etc, of ALL enemies in the game, being jacked up a certain percent.... and you can play the game in "nightmare" mode.... and after that... hell mode (which should be all but impossible... a great feat if you can even get to dungeon level 12 without getting your face blasted off).... possibly allow a few items to be chosen from the endgame before you restart...

I think this would add some serious kick to the game...

9) I...have... returned... (and now... bye... hope some of these ideas get enabled someday, and i hope none of you get upset with my sometimes negative wording)
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Old February 2, 2012, 10:16   #2
ghengiz
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Quote:
Originally Posted by meJustmeNotyou View Post
and i did... finally.... once i figured out i needed good resistances.... I'm not uploading a screen etc because I'm not suicided yet...
No need to suicide...just go to 'C'haracter screen and then dump it (there is an option).

Quote:
Originally Posted by meJustmeNotyou View Post
1) experience became meaningless for my dunadan mage, around 3500' deep... this is actually a huge problem for the fun factor of the game as level advancement was thrown out the window for the latter/harder portion of the game...
I don't mean to sound harsh, but it was to be expected: Dunadan have the heaviest exp penalty of all races

Quote:
Originally Posted by meJustmeNotyou View Post
I have decided that a possible fix could be (because numbers of monsters fought will vary so much between players and games)... the fix could be... making certain character level advancements (like level 41-50) require reaching certain depths... like need to reach 3500 feet to get to character level 41... etc....
mmm.. I see no reason to force that...you can always just dive aggressively

Quote:
Originally Posted by meJustmeNotyou View Post
3) i think i ended the game with like, 10,000,000 gold or something... i'm not sure but if the gold coins were the size of an american little dime, i think i was carrying about 500,000 pounds on my back, the latter part of the game....

but oh my gosh did that extra 1 pound of armor slow me down...

you get what i'm getting at... this whole 500 thousand pounds of gold i'm lugging around (more i think even) is sort of ... dumb... it'd be good if somehow you could rethink the money system solely just to get rid of such a glaringly stupid part of the game...
You could have a point here...the tought of not-weighting money has disturbed me a bit, but I solved it in a very simple way: imagine it being put in the Tolkien equivalent of a credit card or check every time you go to town

Quote:
Originally Posted by meJustmeNotyou View Post
7) i get the idea of "oh my gosh the thief stole a ton of my gold"... and letting us find him and take it back.... but.... this really makes thieves so less scary a thing to fight.... i think gold should disappear forever... in fact i know it's more fun/aggravating/tense that way.... currently, they are just a seriously mild nuisance
If you want your gold disappear, don't kill the thief
Seriously, would you like a thief stole you an artifact (not sure if they can, it has never happened to me), and then it is gone forever?
The present behaviour is a bit more realistic IMO

edit:
On a second read, I have a few more comments for you.
Just to be clear: each one is plain or at most a bit sarcastic. In no way I mean to sound harsh.

Quote:
Originally Posted by meJustmeNotyou View Post
2) the AI needs to be tweeked... make pathfinding much larger for certain monsters.... I say this because I beat the game by splash damaging morgoth with mana storms... all cuz I was 7 squares or something from him and he was too dumb to travel 1 extra square around a corner.... i believe he was confused because i was in a vault, and he was not....

I could refuse to pull such things but I'm a firm believer in not limiting myself just because a game has a drawback mentally...
No one says you should limit yourself, play as you like.
If you consider a mental drawback the possibility to kill The Big One with mana storms from an advantageous strategic position, why don't you act really smart and melee him with your mage?

Quote:
Originally Posted by meJustmeNotyou View Post
4) round and round and round i go.... yeah... pillar dancing... i think i killed like, 1/4 the uniques by doing this.... and why wouldn't i? The alternative is having some guy summon 10 things, that will summon ten things... yeah... not gonna happen...
here you like pillar dancing because the alternative, you say, is too much summons...

Quote:
Originally Posted by meJustmeNotyou View Post
i think a work around for this temptation would be to redo the way time is done in the game... so that it's not so easy for a character to max out above almost everything else... enabling pillar dancing....

by maxing out speed to a level a TON of other uniques reach, you would no longer get the jump on the uniques and eliminate the ability to pillar dance...
...but here you don't, and moreover you suggest a stringer cap on speed??

this last point is arguable, but consider this: speed already has diminishing returns, and, if you don't like it (I cannot understand why, but respect your opinion) don't wear objects which gives you +speed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by meJustmeNotyou View Post
this would need to be balanced by downgrading the ability for creatures to summon so many units... or, at least more great summoners...
here I'm confused...probably I'm misunderstanding you, are you suggesting you want less creatures for summon, and at the same time more great summoners?
or just nerf -you say "more", but probably you mean "most"- of the great summoners?

Quote:
Originally Posted by meJustmeNotyou View Post
5) ummmm.... sauron ... a genie coming out of a bottle? .... seriously? ... someone please alter that please because playing allllll that time just to have sauron be a stupid genie, was so untolkien and soooooooo anti climactic....

seriously way out of place...
I have never ever heard that nickname for Sauron...Why you call him a genie out of a bottle? no really, I'm curious

Quote:
Originally Posted by meJustmeNotyou View Post
8) I think it would be possible... easily.... to do something along diablo 2 style...... and that... is once you finish the game, your character will restart, level 1, with all damage, hp's, armor etc, of ALL enemies in the game, being jacked up a certain percent.... and you can play the game in "nightmare" mode.... and after that... hell mode (which should be all but impossible... a great feat if you can even get to dungeon level 12 without getting your face blasted off).... possibly allow a few items to be chosen from the endgame before you restart...

I think this would add some serious kick to the game...
well, probably...
If you can program, may I suggest you start your own variant with all the changes you propose?

Last edited by ghengiz; February 2, 2012 at 19:34.
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Old February 2, 2012, 19:08   #3
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I don't mean to sound harsh, but it was to be expected: Dunadan have the heaviest exp penalty of all races
I think he was talking about the opposite problem: clvl maxes out at 50, while the dungeon goes to level 99, and it's possible to achieve clvl 50 while still having many dungeon levels left to conquer...
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Old February 2, 2012, 19:10   #4
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It would basically be no fun to worry about the weight of money. Encumbrance is already a major issue, by design. And while in the endgame, money's largely meaningless, it's useful for the early phases, when maybe you can get lucky in the weapons shop or black market. There has been discussion about eliminating item selling, but some money is necessary.

On experience: as was noted, this is strongly related to your descent speed. The max depth you can handle, is strongly influenced by the toys you've accumulated. People have won the game with level 45 characters...and I'm fairly sure, not just those who use the deep-dive strategy. If your strategy tends to be clear most levels, then you can easily be level 45 by DL 70. Once you're happy with your gear, tho, you can skip boring or excessively deadly (read: graveyard) levels and continue down.
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Old February 2, 2012, 19:19   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by meJustmeNotyou View Post
1) experience became meaningless for my dunadan mage, around 3500' deep... this is actually a huge problem for the fun factor of the game as level advancement was thrown out the window for the latter/harder portion of the game...
Experience became meaningless, does that mean:
a) You hit 50 before 3500', and extra experience was wasted?
b) You were 40ish at 3500', but the xp gain was so crap it felt meaningless(Dunadan mages have very high xp penalty), and the tangible benefits of leveling up at higher levels werent as positive as compared to lower levels(not many new spells gained)

If a), I'd say play more aggressively and dive, it makes for a more fun and interesting game, especially when you're stretched to the limit of your resources .
If b), I agree somewhat, the most important aspect of levelling at higher levels for mages are decreased spell failure rates and increased spell damage, which doesnt provide as much positive feedback during the early levels when you're picking up new spells almost every levelup from 1-17(at 18/60 int), although the whole system feels pretty balanced to me atm.

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Originally Posted by meJustmeNotyou View Post
you get what i'm getting at... this whole 500 thousand pounds of gold i'm lugging around (more i think even) is sort of ... dumb... it'd be good if somehow you could rethink the money system solely just to get rid of such a glaringly stupid part of the game...

no i'm not trying to be rude... just saying... it's time angband got slightly more real in this department...
Its an abstraction; games sacrifice realism and flavour for the sake of game design. If you made coins weigh or take up inventory space, it'd greatly impact the game design in multiple ways. There are *many* games which don't do that, Diablo being one of them(I assume you played this, cause you quoted it).

In Diablo, you pick up hundreds and thousands of thousands of gold coins; it's just a number. It doesn't take up inventory space, neither does it weigh your character down. Where does he store the gold on his person? Maybe in a magical pouch, I'm not sure if that's in Diablo lore. Thats one of the ways game designers explain away these things - with lore. Maybe Angband could do the same?

And its not just with monetary systems; games generally don't force you to press a button every few seconds for your character to breathe, neither do they require your character to take a piss every now and then, they abstract it away. But Angband DOES do one thing different from others - our heroes need to eat, or they starve and die.

Sometimes called the ticking time bomb mechanic, I feel it makes sense in severely resource constrained environments like Rogue, or an Angband Ironman game, but it feels... mildly annoying in a normal game, especially since food is so readily available. Not sure if v4 is handling this..

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7) i get the idea of "oh my gosh the thief stole a ton of my gold"... and letting us find him and take it back.... but.... this really makes thieves so less scary a thing to fight.... i think gold should disappear forever... in fact i know it's more fun/aggravating/tense that way.... currently, they are just a seriously mild nuisance
In previous versions the gold disappeared forever; this is the first version I've played where the gold could be retrieved. I feel this adds dimension to the gameplay, because you have to ask yourself: do I ignore him and carry on downwards, or do I seek him out and get my gold back, hoping I don't run into the OOD monster prowling the level, or the pack of Time Hounds that spawned while I was searching for the thief; the game puts you in a risk/reward scenario, and forces you to make a decision.

Then again, gold only makes sense in the early/mid game, and losing 5k gold to a thief in the early game doesn't matter when you end the game with 5mil gold, but that's another issue

Theres probably a ticket in v4 to deal with the end game gold problem though, so not to worry. The way I see it, thieves deal "gold" damage, but at high enough dexterity, its the equivalent of being immune. Maybe if they had a way of stealing consistently at range, and at large amounts(10-20%), and if there were some element in the game which requires you to keep using substantial amounts of gold through to endgame...
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Old February 2, 2012, 19:26   #6
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In the original Diablo, money actually did take up space and fill up your backpack.

They got rid of that for later games because it was annoying as hell.
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Old February 2, 2012, 19:46   #7
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In the original Diablo, money actually did take up space and fill up your backpack.

They got rid of that for later games because it was annoying as hell.
Yup sorry I meant Diablo II.
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Old February 2, 2012, 23:56   #8
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1. From your suggested fix, I have to assume you were level 50 by the time you reached 3500. Typically, my mages are around level 30 at that depth and kill Morgoth before reaching 50. Its a matter of play style, but getting that many levels that shallow is by no means common nor the best approach to winning.

2. Fighting M on a level with a permanently walled vault is indeed easy. However, it is not common and I dont know how hard it would be to improve Mīs pathfinding; afaik, labyrinths are a serious problem for ais outside Angband as well. It would be an option though to not allow any vaults on level 100, but that also would be a bit artificial. I think I rather live with the occasional easy mode.

3. What you carry your money on your body ? I prefer to keep it in my home :P

Anyway, you can either suspend disbelief or force an (imo) pointless game of micromanaging gold coins.

4. Pillar dancing would indeed be fixed by having faster monsters than @, but that would require a greater rebalance than just reducing the (admittedly excessive) summoning abilities. Some people voluntarily refrain from dancing.

Hmmm I wonder...I am pretty sure there is code in the angband borg to detect periodic behaviour, could that be used to make monsters break the pillar dance ? At least for the more intelligent ones.

5. Huh ?

7. Maybe, but you already have trouble imagining gold coins you picked up magically transferred to your house, so how can you not mind them being magically removed ?

8. There are various ways to increase the difficulty, and no need to require a playthrough on "easy" first to qualify for them. Just play ironman with your next character
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Old February 3, 2012, 01:38   #9
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Originally Posted by Estie View Post
2. Fighting M on a level with a permanently walled vault is indeed easy. However, it is not common and I dont know how hard it would be to improve Mīs pathfinding...
This is actually very easy to fix (although I'm not sure my fix is nice and neat enough for the hackhaters). I added this function to melee2.c in DaJAngband to address that problem:

Code:
/* finds whether a monster is near a permanent wall
 * this decides whether PASS_WALL & KILL_WALL monsters 
 * use the monster flow code
 */
static bool near_permwall(const monster_type *m_ptr)
{
	int y, x;
	int my = m_ptr->fy;
	int mx = m_ptr->fx;
	
	/* if PC is in LOS, there's no need to go around walls */
    if (projectable(my, mx, p_ptr->py, p_ptr->px)) return FALSE;
    
    /* PASS_WALL & KILL_WALL monsters occationally flow for a turn anyway */
    if (rand_int(100) < 2) return TRUE;
    
	/* Search the nearby grids, which are always in bounds */
	for (y = (my - 2); y <= (my + 2); y++)
	{
		for (x = (mx - 2); x <= (mx + 2); x++)
		{
            if (!in_bounds_fully(y, x)) continue;
            /* vault walls are always FEAT_PERM_INNER */
            if ((cave_feat[y][x] == FEAT_PERM_INNER)) return TRUE;
		}
	}
	return FALSE;
}
then near the beginning of get_moves_aux() :
Code:
	/* Monster can go through rocks */
	if ((r_ptr->flags2 & (RF2_PASS_WALL)) || (r_ptr->flags2 & (RF2_KILL_WALL)))
	{
         /* still have to go around permanent walls */
         if (!near_permwall(m_ptr)) return (FALSE);
    }
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Old February 3, 2012, 02:34   #10
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4GAI fixes pillardancing, IIRC. It'll probably end up in v4 at some point, but we need monster mana first...and possibly to rethink how the monster healing spell works.
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