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Old April 1, 2016, 19:34   #51
Pete Mack
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If you want to make traps count, add 'shimmering runes', a la NPP.
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Old April 1, 2016, 19:43   #52
Nomad
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So what are the options for intelligent placement in rooms that would make traps harder to avoid?

1) Lines of three across doorways.

Code:

###+######
#.^^^....#
#.......^#
#.......^+
#.......^#
#........#
##########
OTOH, it's probably more efficient just to create trapped doors.

2) Rings around objects or staircases:

Code:

###+######
#........#
#.^^^....#
#.^>^....#
#.^^^....#
#........#
##########
This might work with sufficiently tempting bait, though again, allowing trapped staircases or traps on the same square as objects would probably be a neater way to achieve the same effect.

3) Straight line barriers:

Code:

###+######
#........#
#^^^^^^^^#
#........+
#........#
##########
Work if you really need to get across a room, but there's always the possibility of just digging round or trying to phase past.

4) Filled rooms:

Code:

###+######
#^^^^^^^^#
#^^?^^^^^#
#^^^^^^^^+
#^^^^^^>^#
##########
But would anyone bother to take something like this on for less than vault treasure?

A lot of the trouble with visible traps is that you can pick your battles most of the time in Angband, and traps don't even get up and chase you, so it's quite hard to put the player in a position where they feel any pressure to actually tackle a nasty trap rather than find a way round it. Maybe instead of free-standing traps, we should be thinking along the lines of trapped doors, staircases and objects?
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Old April 2, 2016, 03:22   #53
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Do take a look at NPP. About 20% of traps can zap you in LOS.
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Old April 2, 2016, 04:00   #54
calris
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nomad View Post
So what are the options for intelligent placement in rooms that would make traps harder to avoid?
A couple of ideas from me:

1) 'Trophy Cabinet' - Trap could a combination of Summon Monster and an elemental ball attack that will destroy the item. Put a ring of speed in it with a Lightning + Summon trap

Code:
### #####
#.......#
#..#^#..#
#..# #..#
#..###..#
#.......#
#########
2) The 'Shortcut':
Code:
  # #   #  # #   
  # #   #  # #   
  # #   #  # #   
### ######## ####
#.......#.......#
#.......#.......#
#.......#.......#
#.......^.......#
#.......#.......#
#.......#.......#
#.......#.......#
#################
3) 'Run Away?' - Player enters the level in the room. Teleports and recall are prevented. Dragons are asleep. Activating the trap wakes all of the dragons

Code:
  ###################
  #.................#
  #.................#
  #...............dd#
###.............dddD#
.^@............dddDD#
###.............dddD#
  #...............dd#
  #.................#
  #.................#
  ###################
4) 'One Way Trip' - Not so much a 'trap' as disarm is guaranteed to fail. A targeted teleport into a vault - The area in the vault prevents teleports and recal. At the end of the vault is a 'trap' that teleports you out.
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Old April 2, 2016, 04:08   #55
Derakon
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ToME 2 makes extensive use of targeted-teleport "traps" (called Void Jumpgates) in its special levels. I will caution that they are extraordinarily dangerous to use, and only really usable in ToME 2 because the player's power level is so exceedingly high. Dropping the player into a space they cannot control is tantamount to a death sentence, especially if that space is in any way exposed.
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Old April 2, 2016, 04:48   #56
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Originally Posted by Derakon View Post
Dropping the player into a space they cannot control is tantamount to a death sentence, especially if that space is in any way exposed.
That is the whole point - Risk versus Reward. The player needs to assess if they think they are powerful enough to take the risk. Teleport and Recall are prevented - ESP and Detection are not.

I just walked away from a vault that had a Greater Hell Wyrm ~2000' out-of-depth. I'm a level 29 mage without Tensors so no chance of a fire res boost. I REALLY wanted to crack it open, but in the end I had to walk away.
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Old April 2, 2016, 12:09   #57
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Quote:
'Run Away?' - Player enters the level in the room. Teleports and recall are prevented. Dragons are asleep. Activating the trap wakes all of the dragons
I think that if you arbitrarily need to mangle half the game mechanics to get a feature to work, then that feature probably needs a bit of a rethink.

I think the whole approach to traps in this thread is going in the wrong direction. Make the trap effects interesting and challenging and everything else is solved (I do think detect traps should definitely go though).

By the way instead of the "once only" detection chance, traps should be randomly given a level and you can see any traps that have a level the same or less than your searching skill. So if you put on an amulet of searching you will see traps that you've already failed to notice (it doesn't make sense that this would not help you otherwise).
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Old April 2, 2016, 12:28   #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TJS View Post
(I do think detect traps should definitely go though).
Why do people keep saying this? What classes do they normally play?
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Old April 2, 2016, 12:43   #59
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Originally Posted by Carnivean View Post
Why do people keep saying this? What classes do they normally play?
The reason is that currently once you have detect traps the it becomes completely trivial and boring to avoid traps. It just adds a layer of tedium to the game without adding anything interesting whatsoever.

I play all different types, priests, mages and warriors normally.
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Old April 2, 2016, 13:03   #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TJS View Post
The reason is that currently once you have detect traps the it becomes completely trivial and boring to avoid traps. It just adds a layer of tedium to the game without adding anything interesting whatsoever.

I play all different types, priests, mages and warriors normally.
I play mostly mages, and while I agree that it is tedious to continually detect (not just traps but everything), I can't agree that mages should lose something so integral to their ethos. A mage solves everything with magic, and that has to include traps.

Breaking mages isn't the answer to traps being tedious.

As I've said before, the answer to having to repeatedly detect traps/doors/stairs/visible monsters/invisible monsters/treasure is to make it a buff.
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