Angband.oook.cz
Angband.oook.cz
AboutVariantsLadderForumCompetitionComicScreenshotsFunniesLinks

Go Back   Angband Forums > Angband > Vanilla

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old April 2, 2016, 14:42   #61
Nomad
Knight
 
Nomad's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: England
Posts: 958
Nomad is on a distinguished road
Quote:
Originally Posted by TJS View Post
The reason is that currently once you have detect traps the it becomes completely trivial and boring to avoid traps. It just adds a layer of tedium to the game without adding anything interesting whatsoever.
This is definitely true. I think the problem is now that with detection gone but traps auto-detected, the layer of tedium is gone but avoidance being trivial and boring remains. So the challenge of making traps interesting, as I see it:
  1. Visible traps are trivial to avoid, BUT hidden traps can be an unfair form of instadeath.
  2. If players have a way to manually find traps, they will spam it to always find 100% of traps. BUT if they have no manual search/detection, they're stuck when they know there's a trap but passive search hasn't found it.
Some brainstorming on possible solutions:
  • Make visible traps less avoidable. (Pretty difficult to achieve with Angband's many escape options.)
  • Make visible traps more tempting to try disarming. (Trapped objects, staircases, etc.)
  • Make search/detection a learning curve, so traps are initially mostly hidden but become 100% visible by instadeath depth.
  • Nerf nastier traps to make them less instadeath-y. (e.g. allow player the first move after setting off a Summoning trap)
  • Come up with methods of repeatedly searching a square that are tough to spam/macro. (e.g. search check on moving but not on resting in place)
  • Restore Trap Detection, but as a rare high-end spell/scroll like Banishment that you'd save for use in vaults.
  • Introduce partial detection. (e.g. spells that only find magical runes like Teleport and Summoning, but not mechanical traps)
  • Trap immunity from worn equipment. (e.g. buff Feather Falling to Levitation so it means you don't fall down trapdoors, add an Anti-Magic ability that stops you setting off summoning traps or teleport runes, etc.)
Nomad is offline   Reply With Quote
Old April 2, 2016, 15:14   #62
TJS
Swordsman
 
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 473
TJS is on a distinguished road
Quote:
Originally Posted by Carnivean View Post
I play mostly mages, and while I agree that it is tedious to continually detect (not just traps but everything), I can't agree that mages should lose something so integral to their ethos. A mage solves everything with magic, and that has to include traps.

Breaking mages isn't the answer to traps being tedious.

As I've said before, the answer to having to repeatedly detect traps/doors/stairs/visible monsters/invisible monsters/treasure is to make it a buff.
Tedium is integral to mages? It's not just mages that detect traps it's all classes except warriors and they get a rod to do the same job anyway. There's no method of making traps not tedious if you can detect them.

Quote:
Visible traps are trivial to avoid, BUT hidden traps can be an unfair form of instadeath.
In all my years of playing Angband I don't think I've ever had an instadeath from stepping on a trap. Is this really a problem? If so then the solution is to stop traps causing instadeath rather than make all traps visible all the time.

Agree that repeatedly searching sucks and seeing traps should be made deterministic based on searching skill.
TJS is offline   Reply With Quote
Old April 2, 2016, 15:35   #63
Carnivean
Knight
 
Join Date: Sep 2013
Posts: 526
Carnivean is on a distinguished road
Quote:
Originally Posted by TJS View Post
Tedium is integral to mages?
Is that seriously the level of discourse you want to sink to?
Carnivean is offline   Reply With Quote
Old April 2, 2016, 15:42   #64
TJS
Swordsman
 
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 473
TJS is on a distinguished road
Quote:
Originally Posted by Carnivean View Post
Is that seriously the level of discourse you want to sink to?
TJS is offline   Reply With Quote
Old April 2, 2016, 16:49   #65
spara
Adept
 
Join Date: Nov 2014
Posts: 166
spara is on a distinguished road
Hmmm. In my opinion traps in corridors and in common rooms are mostly a nuisance and I would be happy to see them evolve into oblivion. That would also remove the need for constantly spamming detect traps. They serve a purpose in special rooms and vaults. And for those places I would very much like to have a form of detect traps available.

Now to think about it, just remove traps from corridors and common rooms and I'm a happy player . Nothing else needs to be changed.
spara is offline   Reply With Quote
Old April 2, 2016, 18:07   #66
Carnivean
Knight
 
Join Date: Sep 2013
Posts: 526
Carnivean is on a distinguished road
Quote:
Originally Posted by TJS View Post
There's no method of making traps not tedious if you can detect them.
Ok. Let's apply some assumptions and logic:

Mages solve things with magic. Magic for traps means, at a minimum, being able to magically detect traps. Therefore mages should, at a minimum, be able to magically detect traps.

Mages solve things with magic. For a detected/visible trap, the mage should have a magical solution. The conclusion to this depends on the types of challenges that the various traps provide.

I'd be happy if people were able to show that these are wrong without invalidating the premise that mages solve things with magic.
Carnivean is offline   Reply With Quote
Old April 2, 2016, 18:48   #67
nikheizen
Adept
 
Join Date: Jul 2015
Posts: 144
nikheizen is on a distinguished road
Quote:
Originally Posted by Carnivean View Post
Magic for traps means, at a minimum, being able to magically detect traps. Therefore mages should, at a minimum, be able to magically detect traps.
This is wrong, it's not "the minimum."

Quote:
Originally Posted by Carnivean View Post
Mages solve things with magic. For a detected/visible trap, the mage should have a magical solution. The conclusion to this depends on the types of challenges that the various traps provide.
Totally agree with this though.

The first bit is definitely not the case! As long as the second quote is true, mages are still solving traps with magic. I agree with the below quote, but I think getting rid of Detect Traps is an integral part of this branch.

I think that this doesn't break mages in anyway.
nikheizen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old April 2, 2016, 19:07   #68
Ingwe Ingweron
Veteran
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Manhattan Beach, CA
Posts: 1,854
Ingwe Ingweron is on a distinguished road
After playing a @ down into the DL70's, I have a little more feel for this branch.

Aside from several crashes (something happening when @ kills monster and they drop treasures, but not easily repeated, so no savefile), it is "playable", but I can't say I'm a fan.

As far as the changes to traps and trap detection, I guess I'm agnostic. I don't really care about the change, but it may be interesting once traps are further developed along the lines discussed in this thread.

What I find baffling, frustrating, tedious, and boring is the changes to stair and door detection.

- Having to wander around to find stairs.
- Having to hug walls to find doors. Especially a problem when dealing with pits/nests/moated rooms. Even with mapping, doors don’t show, so planning an assault on these rooms (or a good avoidance plan) is problematic.
- loss of the trap detection line also loses the reminder to detect again for treasure and, if not more often, at least for monsters.

One thing out of the play that I learned, runeid is definitely a big improvement over regular ID.
__________________
“We're more of the love, blood, and rhetoric school. Well, we can do you blood and love without the rhetoric, and we can do you blood and rhetoric without the love, and we can do you all three concurrent or consecutive. But we can't give you love and rhetoric without the blood. Blood is compulsory. They're all blood, you see.”
― Tom Stoppard, Rosencrantz and Guildenstern are Dead
Ingwe Ingweron is offline   Reply With Quote
Old April 2, 2016, 20:40   #69
AnonymousHero
Veteran
 
AnonymousHero's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 1,367
AnonymousHero is on a distinguished road
Quote:
Originally Posted by Carnivean View Post
Ok. Let's apply some assumptions and logic:

Mages solve things with magic. Magic for traps means, at a minimum, being able to magically detect traps. Therefore mages should, at a minimum, be able to magically detect traps by casting appropriate buffs and just walking into the traps.
Do you happen to have tried Baldur's Gate II with a solo mage, perchance? They don't get to detect traps, but they can (if high-level enough) protect themselves from all possible trap effects.

Now, this requires either a) an absurd amount of constant buffing/resting, or b) knowing exactly what and where the traps are[1] and casting exactly the right buffs. Of course this is a terrible game-play mechanic, so I've disabled traps entirely in my game, but it is survivable.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Carnivean View Post
I'd be happy if people were able to show that these are wrong without invalidating the premise that mages solve things with magic.
Did I succeed?

(I mean the gameplay of this mechanic sucks, but I think I did technically answer your challenge. Obviously, creativity will have to be employed to come up with a more entertaining mechanic.)

[1] Traps have fixed placement in BG2.
AnonymousHero is offline   Reply With Quote
Old April 2, 2016, 21:54   #70
nikheizen
Adept
 
Join Date: Jul 2015
Posts: 144
nikheizen is on a distinguished road
Crash on finding a trap on a chest.



Probably not reproducible with the same chest since it managed to panic save instead of crashing and making me repeat the floor.

Also I'd like to note that the create traps spell is actually a good spell now. The instant surround+instant detection makes it into a kind of "snare" forcing you to either phase door, switch to ranged attacks, or waste time disarming traps. Since the traps were invisible before, it was stronger, but also just plain annoying (and usually found on monsters who are already really annoying!).
Attached Files
File Type: zip save.zip (9.0 KB, 32 views)
nikheizen is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Trap/feature knowledge PowerWyrm Vanilla 2 October 7, 2015 13:12
Angband master branch reset on Github Nick Development 2 October 28, 2014 02:26
State of Angband master branch d_m Development 80 November 26, 2010 15:14
svn branch Pete Mack Vanilla 55 August 16, 2010 11:28
more fun with the development branch of 3.1.0 pesachyonah Vanilla 6 May 17, 2008 18:13


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 13:39.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, vBulletin Solutions Inc.