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Old November 9, 2016, 02:53   #41
Pete Mack
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I would kinda hoping to have some fun on the way to the final battles.
Running around deep when instakill lurks at every corner (and every straightaway too) IS exciting.
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Old November 9, 2016, 11:24   #42
TJS
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Running around deep when instakill lurks at every corner (and every straightaway too) IS exciting.
Well I could agree with that, but surely there is a better way than packing half the levels with annoying monsters. Maybe make those levels that are currently best off skipped interesting in their own way. Or we could reduce the number of levels to say 50 and only have one each level generated once.

I just have trouble with the idea that the game has boring levels and so the solution is to fill them with even more boring monsters to tell the player not to play them.
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Old November 9, 2016, 12:54   #43
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Please don't play the "not-a-roguelike" card again. The "definition" is highly contentious (at best) and IMO... almost entirely vacuous unless you're going for really generic elements like "random monsters", "random fights", "random maps", "permadeath". Games exist for pleasure, fun, challenge, etc. but not to fit some definition of "Genre-X". If you're missing "challenge" (as I suspect you are), you say so instead of "not roguelike".
Putting quotes around half the words in your post serves more to disparage your point than your opponent's.

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Well I could agree with that, but surely there is a better way than packing half the levels with annoying monsters. Maybe make those levels that are currently best off skipped interesting in their own way. Or we could reduce the number of levels to say 50 and only have one each level generated once.

I just have trouble with the idea that the game has boring levels and so the solution is to fill them with even more boring monsters to tell the player not to play them.
Infinite non-persistent levels have the advantage of being infinite and non-persistent. What do I mean by this blatantly obvious statement?

You get to choose the levels you play, Angband gives you that power, and that is really cool in its own way. Angband primarily fails here because sometimes the level you want to play is 10 levels deeper than the level you are on, and unless you are stashing ?Deep Descent or can cast Stair Creation, getting down there is a pain.

If you want to play a roguelike game where more levels are interesting, Brogue and Infra Arcana do this excellently. Limiting Angband to 127 persistent floors per character is making it into pseudo-IronmanBand and doesn't solve any of the issues you have with it. You can still get a bunch of uninteresting floors, you're just more likely to have to play them.
Making Angband a 50 non-persistent floor game is a much more approachable topic though. I wouldn't be adverse to trying that out. But I could also see how it would heavily disrupt the balance of force_descent (by which I mean probably destroy it).

Last edited by nikheizen; November 9, 2016 at 13:12.
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Old November 9, 2016, 14:44   #44
Ingwe Ingweron
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Making Angband a 50 non-persistent floor game is a much more approachable topic though. I wouldn't be adverse to trying that out. But I could also see how it would heavily disrupt the balance of force_descent (by which I mean probably destroy it).
Check out Comp 181, won by PowerWyrm. An experiment with a reduced size game - with forced descent, 50 dungeon levels, and smaller dungeon dimensions, view range, and missile ranges.
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Old November 9, 2016, 15:11   #45
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Putting quotes around half the words in your post serves more to disparage your point than your opponent's.
They weren't actually meant to convey sarcasm, merely to clearly distinguish them. Guess I should have used something else .
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Old November 9, 2016, 17:11   #46
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Originally Posted by nikheizen View Post
Putting quotes around half the words in your post serves more to disparage your point than your opponent's.



Infinite non-persistent levels have the advantage of being infinite and non-persistent. What do I mean by this blatantly obvious statement?

You get to choose the levels you play, Angband gives you that power, and that is really cool in its own way. Angband primarily fails here because sometimes the level you want to play is 10 levels deeper than the level you are on, and unless you are stashing ?Deep Descent or can cast Stair Creation, getting down there is a pain.

If you want to play a roguelike game where more levels are interesting, Brogue and Infra Arcana do this excellently. Limiting Angband to 127 persistent floors per character is making it into pseudo-IronmanBand and doesn't solve any of the issues you have with it. You can still get a bunch of uninteresting floors, you're just more likely to have to play them.
Making Angband a 50 non-persistent floor game is a much more approachable topic though. I wouldn't be adverse to trying that out. But I could also see how it would heavily disrupt the balance of force_descent (by which I mean probably destroy it).
Is there not a contradiction between wanting to teach the player not to hang around at the same depth too long and also having an infinite number of levels of that depth that you can play?

Force descent is supposed to be very difficult and I'm sure that some people could beat it even with just 50 levels. The game is too easy at the moment.
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Old November 9, 2016, 17:55   #47
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Is there not a contradiction between wanting to teach the player not to hang around at the same depth too long and also having an infinite number of levels of that depth that you can play?

Force descent is supposed to be very difficult and I'm sure that some people could beat it even with just 50 levels. The game is too easy at the moment.
Forced descent is and always has been the weaker of the two components of ironman; being cut off from town (and particularly from your home) is the stronger component. I'm not saying that forced descent is meant to be easy necessarily, but I'm sure that when people were winning ironman games back in the 2.9x days they felt the loss of town more acutely than the shortage of dungeon levels.

Angband has always had an issue of being too long: the original devs decided "let's just double the number of levels there are in Moria!" but they failed to come up with enough meaningful content to fill those levels.
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Old November 9, 2016, 18:04   #48
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Angband has always had an issue of being too long: the original devs decided "let's just double the number of levels there are in Moria!" but they failed to come up with enough meaningful content to fill those levels.
They probably thought 50 levels was too easy.
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Old November 9, 2016, 18:22   #49
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@Estie--
You need enough levels that 1% risks are enough to kill you in a game. Forced decent and reduced level count between 40 and 75 (speed rings are native) makes the game easier. Of course, since speed boots are so common, this is much easier already than it was in 3.0. That stretch, with bad speed and poor stats, is my favorite part of the game.
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Old November 9, 2016, 19:19   #50
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@Estie--
You need enough levels that 1% risks are enough to kill you in a game. Forced decent and reduced level count between 40 and 75 (speed rings are native) makes the game easier. Of course, since speed boots are so common, this is much easier already than it was in 3.0. That stretch, with bad speed and poor stats, is my favorite part of the game.
I'm getting a bit lost here. We need hounds to make players play the levels less, but we need more levels so they have enough risk to possibly kill the player.

Why not introduce more risks but also reduce the number of levels?

I think Angband had got itself in a state where although there were a lot of unfun and illogical design decisions there was a sort of game balance that people appreciated and found challenging. Removing the unfun stuff has knocked the game balance out of whack making it too easy, but maybe we could make the game harder in other ways rather than bring back some of that boring stuff.
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