Angband.oook.cz
Angband.oook.cz
AboutVariantsLadderForumCompetitionComicScreenshotsFunniesLinks

Go Back   Angband Forums > Angband > Vanilla

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old November 21, 2009, 22:49   #1
PowerDiver
Prophet
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 2,712
PowerDiver is on a distinguished road
on heavy curses

I thought that by now heavy curses would be gone, but it seems like there remains support both for morgul weapons and for the ?curse scrolls.

I think it would be better if enchant scrolls had a fixed chance to break a heavy curse irrespective of the plusses of the item and irrespective of whether the item's plusses change. It's just sad that you have to disenchant your +10 item down first, and it's a complex game mechanic that can't be described well in the item descriptions. Adding "has a 35% chance to break a heavy curse" to enchant scroll descriptions seems much better.

Personally, I abhor the idea of the cannot-unwield curse, so I'm sure I am biased, but I think I would still propose this change without my bias.
PowerDiver is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 21, 2009, 22:54   #2
Magnate
Angband Devteam member
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: London, UK
Posts: 5,057
Magnate is on a distinguished road
Send a message via MSN to Magnate Send a message via Yahoo to Magnate
I am hoping that a big curse overhaul is high on Takkaria's list when he returns. Both aggravation and sticky curses need fixing, and he has lots of other ideas with open tickets (nullify, anchorage, pval-flipping, cannot-drop). If the sticky curses stay at all, I agree that every ?enchant should have a fixed, reasonable chance to break it (no less than 25%).
Magnate is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 22, 2009, 17:11   #3
buzzkill
Prophet
 
buzzkill's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Indiana, USA
Posts: 2,939
Donated: $8
buzzkill is on a distinguished road
Quote:
Originally Posted by Magnate View Post
If the sticky curses stay at all, I agree that every ?enchant should have a fixed, reasonable chance to break it (no less than 25%).
If you're in favor of this mechanic, and the enchant scrolls remain commonly available in stores, then you might as well just get rid of the heavy curses entirely (and that's another slippery slope).
__________________
www.mediafire.com/buzzkill - Get your 32x32 tiles here. UT32 now compatible Ironband and Quickband 9/6/2012.
My banding life on Buzzkill's ladder.
buzzkill is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 22, 2009, 17:25   #4
Magnate
Angband Devteam member
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: London, UK
Posts: 5,057
Magnate is on a distinguished road
Send a message via MSN to Magnate Send a message via Yahoo to Magnate
Quote:
Originally Posted by buzzkill View Post
If you're in favor of this mechanic, and the enchant scrolls remain commonly available in stores, then you might as well just get rid of the heavy curses entirely (and that's another slippery slope).
Ah, but I also hope that Takkaria is going to bit the stores bullet and finally end the buyout button debate by completely reworking the store economy. That will make enchant scrolls a lot rarer ...
Magnate is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 23, 2009, 09:05   #5
bron
Swordsman
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Saratoga, California (in the midst of Silicon Valley)
Posts: 490
bron is on a distinguished road
I for one strongly disagree with the idea of removing heavily cursed items.
It is true that wielding one can be a game ender. But the right way to
deal with that is .. to not wield such a weapon.

Sure it can be a colossal pain to carry around a bunch of weapons until
you get a pseudo-id, or to lug them up to the town to sell, or to wait
until you have an identify spell. If you don't like that, you can always
wield them.

In a totally-different-yet-related way, it can be a colossal pain to get
the message "it breaths, you die." But the right way to deal with that
is .. to be very careful and not let it happen. And at least in this
case it is sometimes nearly unavoidable even if you are being careful:
but wielding an unidentified weapon or reading an unidentified scroll is
always a voluntary act.

And to answer the next question, no, I do not find that this interferes
with or reduces my enjoyment of the game. Heavy curses are an obstacle
to overcome. Prematurely wielding a weapon it is a temptation that must
be resisted. Actions whose consequences are unacceptable force you to
slow down and think about what you're doing. All good things IMHO.
bron is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 23, 2009, 11:20   #6
Psi
Knight
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Surrey, UK
Age: 44
Posts: 870
Psi is on a distinguished road
Quote:
Originally Posted by bron View Post
Actions whose consequences are unacceptable force you to
slow down and think about what you're doing. All good things IMHO.
To quote you out of context, 'slowing down' is the very thing we want to avoid. If you are playing ironman or diving for example, slots and time are precious, so you do not want to/cannot lug around these items waiting for pseudo. The way the game is currently heading is towards id by use - heavy curses just do not sit in that mechanic.
Psi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 23, 2009, 15:00   #7
fizzix
Prophet
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Madison, Wisconsin, US
Posts: 3,002
fizzix is on a distinguished road
Quote:
Originally Posted by Psi View Post
To quote you out of context, 'slowing down' is the very thing we want to avoid. If you are playing ironman or diving for example, slots and time are precious, so you do not want to/cannot lug around these items waiting for pseudo. The way the game is currently heading is towards id by use - heavy curses just do not sit in that mechanic.
I have a couple ideas. Most of my ideas are on the premise that adept players play for low turncount while relaxed/new players go much slower. Therefore, timed mechanics that wear off after a set number of game turns add difficulty to the expert, but do not penalize the new player. This is a good thing, IMO.

A while ago I suggested that certain effects become timed with estimates of a reasonable number of game turns. I'll repeat that here.

Stat-drain: regenerates (one point) after 20k turns
Nexus swap: Swaps back after 50k turns
Sticky curses: unwieldable after 20k turns
Heavy curses: unwieldable after 50k turns

Counters for all these should be available, so you can see how many turns you still have to wait.

Now, if you're an elite player, these times are going to be an unacceptable sacrifice. 50k game turns is a good chunk of the game.

Alternatively, you can stop distinguishing between heavy curses and light curses and make everything removable under a simple remove curse. That spell is available from scrolls fairly commonly and also fairly early for priests/paladins.
fizzix is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 23, 2009, 18:02   #8
d_m
Angband Devteam member
 
d_m's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Philadelphia, PA, USA
Age: 39
Posts: 1,516
d_m is on a distinguished road
Quote:
Originally Posted by PowerDiver View Post
Personally, I abhor the idea of the cannot-unwield curse, so I'm sure I am biased, but I think I would still propose this change without my bias.
I'm curious how you'd feel if Heavy Curses went from making the item unremovable to something like a Time attack, e.g. unrecoverable stat/XP/whatever loss (but the item can be removed as normal). I feel like that is equally hard on ironman and non-ironman players, and doesn't require scumming for a rare scroll.

What are your thoughts? Does being hit with permanent stat/XP loss sound game ending to you? I imagine non-ironman players might prefer the old behavior (since they can hoard ?identify and ?*remove curse* if seen) but I think the alternate behavior might be more interesting.
__________________
linux->xterm->screen->pmacs
d_m is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 23, 2009, 19:35   #9
PowerDiver
Prophet
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 2,712
PowerDiver is on a distinguished road
Quote:
Originally Posted by d_m View Post
I'm curious how you'd feel if Heavy Curses went from making the item unremovable to something like a Time attack, e.g. unrecoverable stat/XP/whatever loss (but the item can be removed as normal). I feel like that is equally hard on ironman and non-ironman players, and doesn't require scumming for a rare scroll.

What are your thoughts? Does being hit with permanent stat/XP loss sound game ending to you? I imagine non-ironman players might prefer the old behavior (since they can hoard ?identify and ?*remove curse* if seen) but I think the alternate behavior might be more interesting.
My opposition to cannot-unwield may be based in the literature. Even the most strongly cursed items, like Stormbringer or a Coin of Bad Luck, can be unwielded and even dropped. It's just if you drop them later they end up in your pack anyway. Also, the heavy curse stops you from testing any new item you find for the slot.

I also do not believe you should be able to id without testing. In the original D&D, you had to wield an item or quaff a potion as part of the identify process. I think that was right. Then the curses inflated to instakill and that was impossible and the rules were changed, but IMO the problem is the inflated curses. Also, pseudo on something you are not wielding makes no sense at all.

I have no particular opposition to any of a myriad of other curses. Permanent stat loss is problematic because of the scarcity of stat potions [my last char only found 2 !str and only 2 !wis before defeating M], but that is more of a stat potion problem than a problem with the curse. If you are talking about temp stat drops, change "stat potion" to "restore potion" for a similar argument. I did not learn awareness of a single restore potion all game, and had only 2 tried but unknown potion flavors at the end, and one of those was probably blindness.

I think it is fair to say that I am opposed to a curse which basically means "you cannot continue as is, but you can return to town to remove the curse trivially with scumming". Every so often there is a discussion of curses, and the conclusion always seems to be that curses are only interesting if you would wield the item after you learned the curse, but nothing is done and the discussion is repeated a year later.

If there was no identify spell, and the only way to learn was to wield-test, then your "hit the player with an attack" curse on a useless item could be interesting. But that is only if there is no other way to identify, because people will avoid it if there is a game mechanic to do so.

This thread is because Tak wrote something in favor of the ?curse scrolls in one recent thread, and several people wrote in favor of morgul weapons in another. If heavy curses are here for the indeterminate future, I don't think it is right to require something as obscure and depressing as requiring one to find a disenchanter eye to disenchant the item before you read your enchant scrolls. That's equally true for non-ironman chars.
PowerDiver is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 23, 2009, 20:23   #10
d_m
Angband Devteam member
 
d_m's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Philadelphia, PA, USA
Age: 39
Posts: 1,516
d_m is on a distinguished road
In the short term I'm proposing to decouple the chance to break a curse from the chance to enchant weapons (as you propose) to see how it plays. I'm not sure Takkaria will go for this but it seems like an easy thing to try which would scratch several itches the community seems to have.
__________________
linux->xterm->screen->pmacs
d_m is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
What we need: More heavy curses buzzkill Variants 16 November 4, 2009 19:53
Can't save via ctrl-s in curses mode Therem Harth ToME 6 September 27, 2009 01:15
Curses Nick Development 29 March 19, 2009 14:36
Rogue Armor - How Heavy Should I Go? SocietalEclipse Vanilla 2 March 14, 2009 23:25
removing heavy curse bug -- not fixed? Colbey Vanilla 6 February 13, 2009 02:41


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 12:38.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, vBulletin Solutions Inc.