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Old December 22, 2014, 16:10   #1
Bogatyr
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to-hit or damage of shooter more important in final fight?

There's a heavy crossbow of Accuracy (x4) (+32, +12) in the Black Market. I'm wielding a randart short bow that's +3 shooting power, so it's (x5) (+12, +14). I'm playing a human mage. I'm wondering if the +32 to hit would end up dealing more damage in the final fight on average by hitting more? I'm also saving up a +20 ring of accuracy (although I never end up using them). Since I'm a human I may need rings for status boosts (although I already have 18/*** INT covered and have +14 DEX via equipment so will have 18/*** DEX once DEX is maxed).

Or since I'm a mage should I just go the wands of drain life / annihilation / mana storm route? I don't think I've ever taken down the big guy with spells alone but with the magic device damage modification, maybe that's the way to go? I love this artifact bow since it's so light yet really packs a wallop.

edit: char dump: http://angband.oook.cz/ladder-show.php?id=17078

Last edited by Bogatyr; December 22, 2014 at 16:18.
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Old December 22, 2014, 16:36   #2
Derakon
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I'd go with spells and devices, honestly. I don't think that +40 to-hit is going to make a difference of more than maybe 10% in your hit rate against Morgoth, and that's if you sacrifice a ring slot -- surely you have better things to put on your fingers! Hell, a spare Ring of Speed will make a bigger difference, even if you're well above +30 speed.

EDIT: good god man, wear your speed rings! And your speed boots! There is absolutely no way that +11 stealth from your Rings of the Mouse / Boots of Stealth is better than +21 speed.
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Old December 22, 2014, 17:34   #3
Bogatyr
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Originally Posted by Derakon View Post
I'd go with spells and devices, honestly. I don't think that +40 to-hit is going to make a difference of more than maybe 10% in your hit rate against Morgoth, and that's if you sacrifice a ring slot -- surely you have better things to put on your fingers! Hell, a spare Ring of Speed will make a bigger difference, even if you're well above +30 speed.

EDIT: good god man, wear your speed rings! And your speed boots! There is absolutely no way that +11 stealth from your Rings of the Mouse / Boots of Stealth is better than +21 speed.
Sure seems to make a difference to me...with all stealth items on ('Legendary'), basically nothing ever wakes up (well Radaghast woke up but I put on the int/speed boots and 0% fail teleported him away). With even 3 less stealth, things wake up once in a while. I swap out to all speed items for (important) fights, then put stealth back on to walk around. I pick my fights very carefully only after probing to make sure I have adequate resists, with my puny hit points. Woohoo found artifact armor just now that gives +3 MORE stealth and immune cold... haha I love stealth! I'd play rogues all the time except I like the "infinite utility" magic of the mage too much. Have to really tip-toe around though because of sucky HP.

So yeah, I switch to speed for combat. Funny thing was not long ago the super dex boost meant equivalent or more damage with the rings of the mouse equipped even considering their negative damage!
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Old December 22, 2014, 17:48   #4
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That's all well and good, but realize that there are plenty of monsters in the dungeon that are never asleep and move at least at +10 speed. You are putting yourself at serious risk of instadeath from those monsters by walking around at normal speed.

+21 speed also effectively triples your stealth compared to base, since monsters are given fewer opportunities in which to wake up. It's not as much as the +11 stealth is (which should be on the order of 10x stealthier), but frankly I personally would not want to be swapping gear around for every fight I get into. Not to mention, those speed rings are vulnerable to electrical attacks as long as they're sitting in your inventory!
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Old December 22, 2014, 17:52   #5
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In answer to the title of your post, +dam is waaaaaaaayyy more important.

Rudimentarily, let's say your arrow does 5 damage.
Xbow: 4x(12+5)=68
S.Bow: 5x(14+5)=95
(not exactly how it works, but a good rule of thumb)

The extra accuracy will add maybe 5% more damage to the former, but no way near enough to make it better.

Hope that helps - good luck

P.S. To my mind, I think a RoAccuracy +15 is about equivalent to a RoDam +3.
It depends on all sorts of things, so YMMV, but accuracy is definitely comparatively useless.
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Old December 22, 2014, 21:51   #6
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Originally Posted by Derakon View Post
That's all well and good, but realize that there are plenty of monsters in the dungeon that are never asleep and move at least at +10 speed. You are putting yourself at serious risk of instadeath from those monsters by walking around at normal speed.

+21 speed also effectively triples your stealth compared to base, since monsters are given fewer opportunities in which to wake up. It's not as much as the +11 stealth is (which should be on the order of 10x stealthier), but frankly I personally would not want to be swapping gear around for every fight I get into. Not to mention, those speed rings are vulnerable to electrical attacks as long as they're sitting in your inventory!
That's why I cast reveal monsters very frequently and avoid almost all blue monsters! I never enter an area without detecting first. And I recall with the speed/int boots on to have 0% fail escapes.

I do not find the "effective stealth" of speed argument compelling. At low stealth but high speed, LOTs of things wake up. With my stealth package I can cherry-pick in at least small vaults. Basically NOTHING EVER wakes up on me which is the way I like it
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Old December 22, 2014, 23:31   #7
Ingwe Ingweron
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Who cares if everything wakes up?! When you're @ is fast, waking things is just fine. You can win many, many more fights, level up in experience and get good drops that much faster. As you progress in your skill level and enter competitions, you will become more concerned with turncount and speed really helps with that. Plus, at some point you will find gear which aggravates creatures, effectively negating stealth, but with such tremendous power together with your speed that you will welcome not having to chase the buggers down. They'll come to you.
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Old December 22, 2014, 23:50   #8
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The argument re: speed vs. stealth isn't a qualitative kind of thing where reasonable people can disagree. It's a matter of mathematics.

Anyway, you have way, way more stealth than is actually useful. +4 on the melee weapon, +4 on each ring, +3 boots, +2 cloak... The stealth bonuses from the cloak and the weapon are more than enough.

Last edited by mushroom patch; December 23, 2014 at 07:37.
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Old December 22, 2014, 23:51   #9
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As you progress in your skill level and enter competitions, you will become more concerned with turncount
Will I?

;-)
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Old December 23, 2014, 00:07   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bogatyr View Post
That's why I cast reveal monsters very frequently and avoid almost all blue monsters! I never enter an area without detecting first. And I recall with the speed/int boots on to have 0% fail escapes.

I do not find the "effective stealth" of speed argument compelling. At low stealth but high speed, LOTs of things wake up. With my stealth package I can cherry-pick in at least small vaults. Basically NOTHING EVER wakes up on me which is the way I like it
You can be insta-killed by various species of hounds (not just time hounds) if you're not very careful, which means ALWAYS casting either (Mass) Banishment Genocide or Create Doors as soon as you enter a level. Actually, AFAICT you can even be insta-killed (if you get slightly unlucky) even if you do cast Create Doors since hounds will be so much quicker than you. Banishment leaves you open to an unlucky wake-up by a unique.

Wear the speed items, forget about stealth. For your own good.
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