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Old January 18, 2009, 10:56   #1
TJS
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Idea for a solution to TMJ

I've always been too lazy to use the squelch options. Seems more like programming in linux to me than playing a game.

Anyway how's about when an item is generated that could be classed as junk then it simply doesn't create it? Or at least has only a 25% chance of getting created.

So when say a weapon is created, it will look at your current weapon and any in your home and decide whether the one generated is junk or not. If so it probably won't be created. This could perhaps be done with a simple rating system for each item, rather than analysing its actual properties.
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Old January 18, 2009, 17:59   #2
Elsairon
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TJS View Post
I've always been too lazy to use the squelch options. Seems more like programming in Linux to me than playing a game.

Anyway how's about when an item is generated that could be classed as junk then it simply doesn't create it? Or at least has only a 25% chance of getting created.

So when say a weapon is created, it will look at your current weapon and any in your home and decide whether the one generated is junk or not. If so it probably won't be created. This could perhaps be done with a simple rating system for each item, rather than analyzing its actual properties.
As far as I know, a rating system just like that is already in the works, for comparing random artifacts (although most agree it still needs lots of work). Also, some work is in the pipe on the pricing system, which is also targeted at balancing the value to power ratio between items.

The challenge is deciding, exactly, what is a better item? Although there are some staples always needed, their value decreases based on the amount carried. Most things are valued in part for their resistances. Some times its wise to carry a simple resist ring, or a not-quite so good weapon because of one of its lesser properties, to cover a weakness.

So it's a complex question to answer, since really the value of items changes based on the situation the character is in, which is always changing.

One could value item's based on the necessary kit to reach end game. This however, is more a function of the players experience and skill, not the characters items. Ideas?
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Old January 22, 2009, 02:09   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TJS View Post
So when say a weapon is created, it will look at your current weapon and any in your home and decide whether the one generated is junk or not. If so it probably won't be created. This could perhaps be done with a simple rating system for each item, rather than analysing its actual properties.
I had a thought along these lines as well, but I don't like the idea of objects being generated or not based on your inventory. The charm of Angabnd is the RNG, random generation. There has to be another way.

A fairly complex set of rules could be created by simply asking the player a series of specific yes/no/skip questions every time he 'destroys' of fails to pick up an item (that he was near). To avoid interruptions to game play, ask such questions only after going up or down a level. At the end of the game, win or lose, review the 'rules' that were created and give the player the option of making some of the permanent, that is, carried over to new characters (maybe class/race specific).
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Old January 22, 2009, 14:47   #4
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Originally Posted by Elsairon View Post
So it's a complex question to answer, since really the value of items changes based on the situation the character is in, which is always changing.

One could value item's based on the necessary kit to reach end game. This however, is more a function of the players experience and skill, not the characters items. Ideas?
I don't think changing item generation is the answer. The current squelch system in NPP along with mass_id means I never have a TMJ problem. I've started a poll on the NPP forum to see what others think. Will post results once I have a few more responses.

-Neil.
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Old January 22, 2009, 17:42   #5
Donald Jonker
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Originally Posted by tigpup View Post
I don't think changing item generation is the answer. The current squelch system in NPP along with mass_id means I never have a TMJ problem.
To a large extent, I agree. Eddie's patch to vanilla also turns TMJ into a relatively trivial matter. In effect, these measures treat the symptoms so well that you may as well ignore the disease.

But I still sympathize with attempts to cure the disease itself, and I think Steamband and Vanilla 3.1 make some steps in the right direction - providing crappy items in stacks so they're more useful, merging two less useful items together, reducing and improving drops, creating a maximum depth for certain items, &c. This tinkering is going to get a lot of mixed results, but I think through trial and error we'll end up with a tighter game experience. I don't think we'll ever reach a stage where squelching will be unnecessary, but making items as useful as possible, and provoking players into considered decisions about them is a good thing, so in the end, I submit that progressive changes to item generation is for the good.
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Old January 22, 2009, 19:46   #6
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Thinking a bit further, since there are certain squelch habits that are more or less universal, it makes sense to change object generation to reflect it. The game might as well stop generating !CLW, !CSW, bad gear, average gear, &c at certain stages in the game (and to an extent I believe this has already taken place in 3.1). If there are certain squelching practices that almost everyone lives by, then the games object generation rules ought to live by them as well.
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Old January 22, 2009, 20:51   #7
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This is indeed at least partially the case (in the latest revision on SVN); the chance of a given piece of equipment being good (or better) is (item level + 2)*3 with no cap. Currently item level is the max of dungeon level and monster level. So at DL32, all equipment generated is good or better. Also, at that level, nearly half of all equipment generated is excellent.

Also, the end of the A: line in object.txt shows the levels on which each item is generated. Currently !CLW is only allowed on levels 1-15 and !CSW on 4-40.

So there are some "pre-squelching" measures in place. Squelch in V has a ways to grow, but I'm more excited to see how the id system will change.
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