Angband.oook.cz
Angband.oook.cz
AboutVariantsLadderForumCompetitionComicScreenshotsFunniesLinks

Go Back   Angband Forums > The real world > Idle chatter

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old December 20, 2015, 10:56   #21
Mondkalb
Knight
 
Mondkalb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 809
Mondkalb is on a distinguished road
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bowman View Post
I like hard copies, so it's annoying that there isn't a complete book of Lovecraft (as far as I know) like there is the complete book of Poe. I have 3 or 4 compilations of Lovecraft stories and yet still don't have everything that's on dagonbytes.

Oh, also, Pickman's Model is another nice one, with the added bonus that it ties into Dream Quest.

Well, there is the annotated complete works:
http://www.amazon.com/New-Annotated-...dp/0871404532/

and the complete fiction:
http://www.amazon.com/Complete-Ficti.../dp/1631060015
Mondkalb is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 20, 2015, 14:30   #22
Bowman
Apprentice
 
Join Date: Oct 2015
Posts: 60
Bowman is on a distinguished road
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rowan View Post
He did spend a good amount of time sick with that dagger, then playing catch-up. He's definitely coming into his own, though my interest in Perrin is rapidly waning to balance it out, ha.
Perrin...yeah, he goes through a long stretch of alternating between his "axe vs. hammer" monologues and trying to figure out how relationships with females work. For me, his part in "A Memory of Light" was good enough to (mostly) make up for it, but Perrin is definitely the worst of the three boys.

Quote:
I actually meant Brian Herbert! But come to think of it, the fictional son was also pretty much a disaster.
Oh, did Brian Herbert continue the series after "Chapterhouse: Dune"? I always saw that one listed as the end of the official series, so I never looked into whatever Brian Herbert did.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mondkalb View Post
Well, there is the annotated complete works:
http://www.amazon.com/New-Annotated-...dp/0871404532/

and the complete fiction:
http://www.amazon.com/Complete-Ficti.../dp/1631060015
Ah, that's EXACTLY the sort of thing I wanted! Thanks!

This is what happens when you rely on dropping by book stores instead of taking advantage of technology
Bowman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 20, 2015, 14:50   #23
wobbly
Veteran
 
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Adelaide, Australia
Posts: 1,112
wobbly is on a distinguished road
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rowan View Post
"God Emperor" was truly painful.
Interesting that everyone seems to hate God Emperor. I found it the 2nd best in the series (1st is the 1st book), though it reads more like philosophy then a story. It also explains a lot of things from the 1st 3 that don't really make sense without it. 5 & 6 make little sense whatsoever & I suspect the 7th that he never finished was meant to clarify a few things, the way the 4th clarifies things from the 1st 3.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bowman View Post
It does give it a sense of being part of a bigger world, though I personally prefer the way that Lovecraft does that. I'm probably too harsh on Tolkien's works in general, but I just always found LotR to feel really hollow and formulaic, even before falling in love with the works of Lovecraft and Poe (both of whom also more or less started their own genres, so I'm not going to cut Tolkien any slack on that behalf). The Silmarillion has been worthy of the high praise that it gets, though.
This I also find interesting because your criticism of Tolkien (formulaic) would be mine of Lovecraft. For all that I love his imagination & creative, it feels to me that once you've read a few lovecraft stories you've read them all. The story details might change a little, but the literary devices are often exactly the same. For me it's like he wrote 1 good story a thousand times. With a couple of notable exceptions (from the 1's I've read): "The music of Eric Zann" & "The Dream-Quest of Unkown Kadath". I think "the music of Eric Zann" for me is an all time favourite.

Last edited by wobbly; December 20, 2015 at 15:40.
wobbly is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 20, 2015, 15:44   #24
Therem Harth
Knight
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Entropia
Posts: 884
Therem Harth is on a distinguished road
So, just IMO, it's worth mentioning that the later Dune novels have the highest conceptual squick factor of anything I have ever read or heard of in SF. And I have read an awful lot of bad and/or disturbing SF.
Therem Harth is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 20, 2015, 15:51   #25
wobbly
Veteran
 
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Adelaide, Australia
Posts: 1,112
wobbly is on a distinguished road
Quote:
Originally Posted by Therem Harth View Post
So, just IMO, it's worth mentioning that the later Dune novels have the highest conceptual squick factor of anything I have ever read or heard of in SF. And I have read an awful lot of bad and/or disturbing SF.
Had to look up "squick" so not entirely sure what you mean here by "conceptual squick" as I'm not used to the term.
wobbly is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 20, 2015, 16:06   #26
Therem Harth
Knight
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Entropia
Posts: 884
Therem Harth is on a distinguished road
@wobbly

In this case, "conceptual" as in "I don't care if it happens off-screen, just the concept is enough to make me feel like barfing."
Therem Harth is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 20, 2015, 19:31   #27
Bowman
Apprentice
 
Join Date: Oct 2015
Posts: 60
Bowman is on a distinguished road
Quote:
Originally Posted by wobbly View Post
Interesting that everyone seems to hate God Emperor. I found it the 2nd best in the series (1st is the 1st book), though it reads more like philosophy then a story. It also explains a lot of things from the 1st 3 that don't really make sense without it. 5 & 6 make little sense whatsoever & I suspect the 7th that he never finished was meant to clarify a few things, the way the 4th clarifies things from the 1st 3.
As I see it, "God Emperor" had two big things going against it:

1. Replacing Paul as the central figure of the plot with Leto. Paul was a much easier character to bond with, because he was still essentially human (in terms of his characteristics, motivations, value system, etc.). Leto just about always ran on a whole different moral/ethical system, and then he went completely off the rails by bonding with a sandworm and twisting the Golden Path to his own ends and getting obsessed with cloning Idaho.

2. As you mentioned, "God Emperor" has a completely different narrative style. I actually didn't mind this, but it's not surprising that a lot of people would get turned off by it. It was kind of like how "Battlefield Earth" turns into a completely different book halfway through, only it came after readers had had about three times as long to get used to what "Dune" is.

I would say that "God Emperor" was still at least a decent book, but I still feel like it (and the books that came after) would've worked better if there was some kind of a formal divide between them and the earlier ones.

Quote:
This I also find interesting because your criticism of Tolkien (formulaic) would be mine of Lovecraft. For all that I love his imagination & creative, it feels to me that once you've read a few lovecraft stories you've read them all. The story details might change a little, but the literary devices are often exactly the same.
Pedantic side note: My criticism of being formulaic was specifically for LotR, not for Tolkien's works as a whole.

I would agree that a good number of Lovecraft's stories tended to hit the same 3-5 broad strokes points, and I can't fully explain why it didn't bother me as much with his work as the "I can see what's coming in the next 50 pages" feeling with LotR did. Maybe it's that the really different Lovecraft stories (The Haunter in the Dark, The Music of Erich Zann, The Dream Quest of Unknown Kadath, Dreams in the Witch House, Pickman's Model, to name a few) were different enough to break up the feeling of being repetitive. Maybe it was that the cosmic horror genre just resonates well with me, so I was enjoying them enough to not mind it. Ultimately, I'd just chalk it up to being one of those subjective elements of taste.
Bowman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 22, 2015, 17:06   #28
Rowan
Adept
 
Rowan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: TX
Posts: 139
Rowan is on a distinguished road
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bowman View Post
Oh, did Brian Herbert continue the series after "Chapterhouse: Dune"? I always saw that one listed as the end of the official series, so I never looked into whatever Brian Herbert did.
Well... he did. He wrote "Hunters of Dune" and "Sandworms of Dune," which supposedly complete his father's original intent for the story. However, that's very suspicious- because as soon as Brian took over, the story took off in a different direction, all the characters' personalities changed and intelligence dropped through the basement. Then I already mentioned he makes a character from his own prequels into the savior of the universe. Somehow I don't think it was in Frank's notes that the original ending of the story would glorify characters that his son would write 15 years after Frank's death.

I generally tell people to just stop after "Chapterhouse" and pretend the others never existed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Therem Harth View Post
"I don't care if it happens off-screen, just the concept is enough to make me feel like barfing."
Hahaha, I'm trying to remember what you might be talking about.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bowman View Post
Pedantic side note: My criticism of being formulaic was specifically for LotR, not for Tolkien's works as a whole.
How so formulaic?
Rowan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 22, 2015, 22:18   #29
Nick
Vanilla maintainer
 
Nick's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Canberra, Australia
Age: 52
Posts: 6,654
Donated: $60
Nick is on a distinguished road
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rowan View Post
How so formulaic?
It's just like a lot of the fantasy that succeeded it
__________________
One Ring to rule them all, One Ring to find them,
One Ring to bring them all and in the darkness bind them.
Nick is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 23, 2015, 22:11   #30
Bowman
Apprentice
 
Join Date: Oct 2015
Posts: 60
Bowman is on a distinguished road
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rowan View Post
Hahaha, I'm trying to remember what you might be talking about.
I'd guess that it at least involves the axlotl tanks and Bene Gesserit muscle control.
Quote:
How so formulaic?
From what I can recall, it just felt like the plot went along exactly as you would expect, and with the exception of the Shrine's state upon their return, what few things there were that could've been surprising were foreshadowed too heavily (although I might be keying in too much on Gandalf's attitude towards Gollum in the early parts and Wormtongue being Obviously Evil from the moment he's introduced as some ruler's adviser or whatever).

Honestly, it's not something that I'd normally consider to be a major flaw (the formula works for a reason, after all), but combined with not finding any of the characters compelling and getting bored with Sauron's apparent lack of actually doing anything, it's just one more thing that I disliked about LotR. I could just as easily say that most of the parts of The Silmarillion are formulaic, too, but they've got enough other things going for them that I can forgive that.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nick View Post
It's just like a lot of the fantasy that succeeded it
For sure, the wide spread influence that LotR had on fictional media as a whole and the medieval high fantasy genre in particular has lead to a bit of a Seinfeld Is Unfunny situation. I don't know that that's the whole of it, though, because LotR was one of the earliest works in that genre that I'd read (mostly read a lot of Fred Saberhagen's non-Berserker books and some R.A. Salvatore before it).
Bowman is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
?Acquirement location of reading revisited Ingwe Ingweron Vanilla 5 October 20, 2014 14:56
Reading scrolls from inventory menu Ingwe Ingweron Vanilla 1 October 22, 2013 13:42
Nightlies: Bug reading Rune scroll off ground Max Stats Development 2 April 17, 2011 17:13
crash after reading scroll of trap creation in town Maupin Development 1 August 3, 2009 09:21
strange C code in Angband (am I reading this right?) will_asher Idle chatter 3 February 4, 2008 10:07


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 16:50.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.