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Old January 18, 2016, 19:36   #41
Rowan
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Remove Radagast.
Yes, please, a thousand times yes. Either that or make good uniques non-hostile until hit by the player.


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Not sure what could be done about Arien, Maia of the Sun.
Do we even need Arien? There's already Vargo and The Phoenix. Certainly one of them could be beefed up if necessary to make up for Arien's absence.
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Old January 18, 2016, 21:32   #42
Ingwe Ingweron
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Yes, please, a thousand times yes. Either that or make good uniques non-hostile until hit by the player.
Always this assumption that @'s are "good". At best, I think @ is "gray". A mix of both good and evil, just like all of us.
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Old January 18, 2016, 23:38   #43
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Always this assumption that @'s are "good". At best, I think @ is "gray". A mix of both good and evil, just like all of us.
Honestly, I think Huan and the ainur (which sounds like a cool name for a band, now that I say it like that, but I digress ) being in Angband makes sense regardless of whether @ is "good" or "gray". It was a mentioned point in The Silmarillion that after fleeing to Angband, Morgoth began a campaign of deception and manipulation to spur in-fighting between various "good" factions, including how people who came out of the fortress were impossible to trust afterwards because others couldn't tell if they had escaped or if they were spies.
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Old January 19, 2016, 14:47   #44
Timo Pietilš
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Honestly, I think Huan and the ainur (which sounds like a cool name for a band, now that I say it like that, but I digress ) being in Angband makes sense regardless of whether @ is "good" or "gray". It was a mentioned point in The Silmarillion that after fleeing to Angband, Morgoth began a campaign of deception and manipulation to spur in-fighting between various "good" factions, including how people who came out of the fortress were impossible to trust afterwards because others couldn't tell if they had escaped or if they were spies.
Radagast being in Angband doesn't make sense. Huan perhaps, hunting Carcharoth and generally not liking mass-murderers like @ that kill everything that moves and most things that don't move. Radagast isn't just "good", he is pacifist. As such he would get as far out of Angband as he could get. Good violent chars I understand in angband, but not someone who is clearly against all sorts of violence. Even Gandalf would be better than Radagast. Actually Gandalf would fit nicely to current Radagast role.
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Old January 19, 2016, 15:36   #45
Rowan
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Always this assumption that @'s are "good". At best, I think @ is "gray". A mix of both good and evil, just like all of us.
Not everyone plays @ as good, but the logic doesn't follow to say therefore good enemies should always attack @. It kind of spoils the immersion for anyone who DOES play @ as good.

Plus, whether or not the player plays @ as good, good-aligned enemies would not attack someone who was not a servant of Morgoth. Even the argument that good enemies "aren't expecting anything but evil monsters" or that they get "taken off guard" and "attack @ by accident" sort of fall flat, because they persist in attacking @ just as viciously as if they were evil.

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Huan perhaps, hunting Carcharoth and generally not liking mass-murderers like @ that kill everything that moves
Still this only applies to certain styles of play. Even though not all @s may be "good," also not everyone plays @ as trying to exterminate everything it sees. Besides, Huan is unaware of anything @ has done until they first meet, at which point all he'd see is that @ is also fighting Morgoth's minions. Even an ordinary dog would recognize someone like that as an ally, and certainly Huan would.
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Old January 21, 2016, 18:21   #46
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Radagast isn't just "good", he is pacifist. As such he would get as far out of Angband as he could get. Good violent chars I understand in angband, but not someone who is clearly against all sorts of violence.
Oh, is this something that comes up from one of those other side story sets? The only thing about Radagast in my version of The Silmarillion was that he gave some animal friends to Saruman. If he is explicitly a pacifist, then yeah, it doesn't make sense for him to be in Angband.

Not that it makes terribly much sense to have Kronos or jabberwocks or death molds, either, but you know what I mean

I get that you can have varying degrees of slaughterism with any @, but is there really a way to play @ as being unambiguously good? Every creature in Angband is capable of hurting any other, and that's even kind of acknowledged by the description for horned reapers, so it's not just a gameplay simplification. Anything less than unambiguously good, and it can be explained by the whole "internal strife among good people" thing that Morgoth was promoting. I'm not trying to be dismissive of getting annoyed about fighting other Valar, but it doesn't seem too farfetched to me.
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Old January 21, 2016, 18:47   #47
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I get that you can have varying degrees of slaughterism with any @, but is there really a way to play @ as being unambiguously good?
Angband's settings and mechanics are too simplistic to really allow for any moral gradations. The ultimate goal of the game is to kill something, and you can only get stronger by killing things or by drinking potions. Theoretically you might be able to get strong enough solely through Potions of Experience and sneaking around the dungeon stealing items to get the power needed to win, but realistically practically nobody plays that way.

More plausibly, let's say you play the "self-defense" game: only kill things that attack you first. Is that really the kind of action a good person would take? Let's say you're an American in WWII and you drive a tank into Germany, but you only shoot people after they've shot at you first -- you're still the aggressor, you're not acting in self-defense because your mere presence is provocation.

Put another way, in order to have a properly "good" protagonist, you need to have scenarios that can realistically allow a good person to succeed. In order to have a proper morality system, you need to give the player the opportunity to choose between good and evil, and that choice needs to be a hard choice (not merely stuff like "kill these guys, but apologize afterwards" vs. "kill these guys, while calling them names").

Put another way, go play Undertale.
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Old January 22, 2016, 00:22   #48
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Yeah, that's the point I was doing a horrible job of making. The game doesn't really let you express any morality for @, so reading any morality into the game's treatment of @ is a bit of a reach.
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Old January 22, 2016, 17:50   #49
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The game doesn't really let you express any morality for @, ...
Other than wholesale slaughter, you mean?
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Old January 26, 2016, 22:36   #50
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Though simplistic in terms of actual roleplay and having few moral decisions to make, Angband is still a roleplaying game. Something as simple as putting a gang of street-urchins to sleep or just running away, in stead of blasting them off the face of the earth or bashing their brains in, qualifies as a "good" act in terms of what Angband allows the player to do.

In a lot of small, subtle ways, I do believe there's enough wiggle-room to play good. I am probably in the minority going to the trouble of playing good, but those players do exist, and I certainly am not the only one who complains about good enemies appearing in Angband.
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