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Old September 5, 2017, 16:07   #131
Derakon
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chris View Post
Or, which of the following do you think is true:
(a) *Identify* is stupid since it means I have to *Identify* every single object I find! At least with easy_id, Identify becomes *Identify* instantaneously. -or-
(b) With the 5.0 lore system, Identify becomes *Identify* ... gradually and over time. Players earn their lore. But the time over which this occurs is not oppressive. Play the game thru just once and then the next player (same savefile) basically just needs to *id* rand-arts (Forget about devices for a moment)?
Speaking as someone who hasn't played PosChengband in a long time, but has played an awful lot of roguelikes in general, I can say with good confidence that I just flat-out don't like having to identify items, and I have never seen a game that handles unidentified gear in a way that I felt was a net positive to the game -- Vanilla included! There are absolutely niche circumstances where having things in your pack that you don't know what they do can be an interesting issue, but they are always vastly outweighed by the tedium of having to figure out what all these items do before you can use them.

And that last statement is probably the most significant -- I'm not willing to use an item that might be cursed, or a potion that might be poisonous, etc. It's almost always a pointless risk with only marginal benefits.

As a player, my style is to break a game apart into a collection of mechanics, analyze those mechanics, and figure out how to use them best to succeed at the game. This is a very deconstructionist approach to games, and doesn't leave a lot of room for concepts that make neat stories but have ambivalent mechanistic effects. And under this approach, identification amounts to an extra action you have to take / consumable you have to use, with any item before you use it.

You can force players to engage with your mechanics. Vanilla tried to do this by removing magical identification altogether, so that the only way to ID items was by using them. There was a minor player rebellion, so mages got to keep their precious Identify spell. But in general I would say that, if you're going to come to me and say "look, please play the identification game the way I've implemented it", I will need a lot of convincing that your implementation amounts, mechanically, to anything more than "I must identify everything I find before I'm willing to use it." I'm not saying it's impossible, just that so many people in so many roguelikes have tried to do the identification game in so many different ways, and I've never felt that it was a positive addition to the game.

On the flipside, I've played Angband and variants of Angband where everything is just automatically identified as soon as you pick it up. For me, that makes the game far more fun. I can focus on the parts that I enjoy -- the tactics and strategy of dealing with a given set of monsters in a given set of terrain, and the gambling aspect of finding new items -- without dealing with a part that I really don't. From my perspective, having to identify items is a relic of a bygone era, only present out of inertia.
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Old September 5, 2017, 17:42   #132
HugoTheGreat2011
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Originally Posted by chris View Post
I will be dropping clouded's contributions from the next version.
Does this mean you're going to say goodbye to the awesome Lite Town you implemented?
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Old September 5, 2017, 21:32   #133
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This is pretty funny. I have some changes I've never really mentioned like removing ambushes and dungeon guardians but I haven't changed anything with staves of healing. By the way, for years I have broadcasted my poschengband games on termcast.org and an irc channel of people have watched me play, there are several people here more reputable than a scumlord like me who can prove my innocence.

Edit: Out of curiosity I went into devices.c and changed EFFECT_HEAL_CURING to a level 1 effect. What this seems to do is cause all DL1 staves to be cure wounds, and seemingly no DL80 staves to be healing. Pretty bad deal, why would I want to do that? Also, in the character sheet these level 1 healing staves aren't even listed as "Cure Wounds" in the item tallies. This display bug is present all the way back to 4.0.0 for me because that is when this item tracker was added to dumps. It also shows up on the one poschengband-r game I won, which I didn't modify at all.

Last edited by clouded; September 5, 2017 at 22:28.
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Old September 6, 2017, 01:50   #134
Mocht
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Originally Posted by chris View Post
Players who really know the new [lore] system, know that it really just means (forgetting devices and assuming stand arts) about 60 ?*ID* per game *and* are still unwilling to use it really should not be playing this variant
You are explicitly telling me to not play your game, I will comply with your request
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Old September 6, 2017, 04:25   #135
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Originally Posted by Mocht View Post
You are explicitly telling me to not play your game, I will comply with your request
I don't think we all need to start piling on chris because he showed one moment of human frailty after spending two straight years cranking out a variant that is arguably more popular than Vanilla (sorry Nick.)

I also think clouded has contributed a ton of stuff not just to poscheng, but many other variants as well. I've also learned a lot by watching him on said termcasts, although he probably still thinks I'm a total scrub. Yes, his online persona is a bit edgelordy sometimes but I'm very happy to have him around. I have also personally maintained changes in my own variant branches before, and I never felt the need to announce them every time. The oook ladder isn't a sacred place. Hell, I wasn't even that picky about that sort of thing when I was running the comps.

I'll note that people rarely had much of a leg to stand on when they argued about what they wanted in Sil, because it was such a huge departure (was not seen to have a heritage) and half clearly expressed what the design philosophy was up-front.

Porschengband is very clearly a hengband descendant with way cooler stuff added, and indeed most of the early versions of poscheng added a lot of zany things (possessors, rings, etc.) I would have described hengband as "super batshit crazy", and since poscheng appeared to be amplifying that in the first few releases, that's the philosophy I ascribed to it. Maybe it's time to make it clear somewhere central what poscheng's core intended flavor really is?

Anyhow, I think the idea of cutting all the options that are obscuring intent is a good one. At worst, someone will fork from 6.x or elli and go in a different direction, and maybe people will really get a chance to see if the direction poscheng is taking will work out. I do have my doubts about pitching a variant that discourages diving to the angband community, but I'd be happy to be proven wrong.
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Old September 6, 2017, 06:07   #136
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Originally Posted by chris View Post
[...]
This sounds like one of those things that should have been in private messages instead in the thread, but then debo's post might not have been quite as good or comprehensive— tradeoffs.

To corroborate, I'm one of those people that watched clouded's termcast enough to say; the reason clouded was annoyed with device changes was because he was already annoyed with the vanilla (6.*) level of hassle some characters had getting devices online.

So am I, for that matter, but I also think it's appropriate that brawn characters need +Md to use powerful tools they didn't train for; I'd probably just smooth out the device changes instead of getting rid of them... or make it so +Md can be found more reliably, since it usually means sacrificing [M with amulet slots or sacrificing +slaying/brands with glove slots, regardless. (Also now Free Action, I guess.)

Current theory for the display bug is that it has something to do with compiler differences or files leftover from previous versions that didn't update correctly.


Quote:
Originally Posted by chris View Post
[1] "Super batshit crazy" was never my design intent. Quite the exact opposite, actually. I guess I really need to write something up on my goals and views. If people knew more about my intentions, they'd be less puzzled by changes. Also, they would understand that what they want to play might not be what I want to build. That's OK. I really think there is opportunity for forking this variant and doing something more crowd pleasing. I would actually encourage this.
Ah, yeah— you see— stuff like Sexy Android Berserker or "you can play as the One Ring! Not someone wearing it, but the Ring itself!" is kinda how a lot of people got introduced to the game, followed by getting hooked on how there's such a great variety of choices that if one interesting character dies you can immediately start on a new one with radically different mechanics and balance.

There's overpowered things like Psion, mid-power things like Diggermaster, or low-power things like Hexmage or (non-U-discounting) Warlock, and they all have completely different playstyles and perspectives on the game, thus collectively making most other variants look bland and over-balanced by comparison.

Then there's Possessor; one of the reasons Hugo played so many Possessors is because Poschengband has the best Possessors out of the few games that even have them— they offer plenty of variety each game, they aren't broken, buggy, or unfinished, they're strong, and they have plenty of silly little details that another variant would just... simplify away.

I would not be surprised if most players (were all of them to read your post) failed to reconcile your perspective and their brightest memories of playing.

You might not have intended the game to be so, but your work was successful enough that it took on some life of its own.

I could have guessed your original intentions, myself, but failed to; I thought 5.x, 6.x, and 7.x represented a slow but novel shift in your design philosophy rather than you attempting to return to your original goals.
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Old September 6, 2017, 07:19   #137
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Originally Posted by Nivim View Post
To corroborate, I'm one of those people that watched clouded's termcast enough ...

Current theory for the display bug is that it has something to do with compiler differences or files leftover from previous versions that didn't update correctly
If Clouded is innocent then Chris's attacks on him are shameful and shocking
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Old September 6, 2017, 08:20   #138
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Originally Posted by debo View Post
Porschengband
Now I know what I want in the next version: cars!
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Old September 6, 2017, 09:39   #139
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Now I know what I want in the next version: cars!
LOL

(and some characters to make the 10 character minimum)
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Old September 6, 2017, 11:19   #140
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Originally Posted by Mocht View Post
LOL

(and some characters to make the 10 character minimum)
Ha. I double-checked my post for autocorrects but missed that one, and I'm sort of glad I did.
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