Angband.oook.cz
Angband.oook.cz
AboutVariantsLadderForumCompetitionComicScreenshotsFunniesLinks

Go Back   Angband Forums > Angband > Vanilla

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old October 2, 2015, 17:33   #11
Carnivean
Knight
 
Join Date: Sep 2013
Posts: 526
Carnivean is on a distinguished road
Quote:
Originally Posted by Derakon View Post
If every part of the game feels the same, then there's no real sense of progression;
I'd add that no real sense of progression over 100 levels just makes the game feel like drudgery.
Carnivean is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 2, 2015, 17:59   #12
bio_hazard
Knight
 
bio_hazard's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 619
bio_hazard is on a distinguished road
I would agree with the previous two statements. It is an interesting question though- I wouldn't mind seeing a slightly higher mana penalty for mages and big armors and more useful/flavorful light armors for casters.

I also wouldn't mind seeing encumbrance be more interesting. I while ago I had suggested turning rings of feather fall into rings of buoyancy that reduced or removed the slowing effect of encumbrance. Maybe have encumbrance reduce stealth as well?

There are a lot of players who spend most of their time in the early/mid game, so just because something becomes irrelevant in the late game does not mean it is not an interesting part of the game for a lot of people.
bio_hazard is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 2, 2015, 18:38   #13
mushroom patch
Swordsman
 
Join Date: Oct 2014
Posts: 298
mushroom patch is an unknown quantity at this point
Quote:
Originally Posted by Derakon View Post
Wow, you do an awful job of characterizing people who don't agree with you.
Well, I expected a more thoughtful response, but in this case it turns out you're right.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Derakon
Angband is, from one perspective, a game about gaining power, or put another way, a game about losing weakness (it's all relative, right?). How is losing a limitation on your carrying capacity not satisfying? And it's not "trivial bookkeeping garbage" -- in the early game you really do have significant limits on what you can carry, and this impacts how you play the game in a major way.
The only reason to carry so much stuff you hit encumbrance limits is if you're planning to sell stuff. I explain what's not satisfying about "losing weakness" (lol) in the previous post.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Derakon
It's important that the early game play differently from the late game. If every part of the game feels the same, then there's no real sense of progression; you're just doing the same thing as you did at the start, only with bigger numbers. Stripping away "human" limitations as the character gains power is an important part of this. It's not just carrying capacity, but also having to work with a meager hitpoint and spellpoint pool, having only one or two blows/round, not being able to detect what's going on around you, being unable to see invisible monsters, etc. etc. etc. All of these eventually become irrelevant as the player gains in power; should we then strip them away because they're therefore somehow pointless?
Is this supposed to be a joke? How can you argue so vehemently while undermining your own point? "It's not just carrying capacity, but also having to work with a meager hitpoint and spellpoint pool, having only one or two blows/round, not being able to detect what's going on around you, being unable to see invisible monsters, etc. etc. etc." Oh really? It's not only carrying capacity? Huh, well maybe those other things are sufficient to differentiate the early game from the late game. Weird idea, I know...


Quote:
Originally Posted by bio_hazard
There are a lot of players who spend most of their time in the early/mid game, so just because something becomes irrelevant in the late game does not mean it is not an interesting part of the game for a lot of people.
What if the game were designed for people who can win at it?
mushroom patch is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 2, 2015, 20:50   #14
kandrc
Swordsman
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 299
kandrc is on a distinguished road
Quote:
Originally Posted by mushroom patch View Post
The only reason to carry so much stuff you hit encumbrance limits is if you're planning to sell stuff.
This is a ridiculous claim. In no-sell games, I'm managing inventory, and making equipment decisions on the cusp of encumbrance limits until usually about clvl 30/dlvl 90+. When I used to have to deal with selling, I'd only have one or two inventory slots for saleable objects. Said objects, if encumbering, were left on the dungeon floor while I adventured. 20 years ago, when I followed the "guides" (and didn't win), I'd have 10 or more slots devoted to revenue. I have to argue that if you're only facing encumbrance limits when selling, that you're not playing a strategy that maximizes winning/<variable> where <variable> is almost anything.
kandrc is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 2, 2015, 20:52   #15
kandrc
Swordsman
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 299
kandrc is on a distinguished road
Quote:
Originally Posted by mushroom patch View Post
What if the game were designed for people who can win at it?
They can turn on cheat death. I did it for years, still had fun, and learned how to win for real.
kandrc is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 3, 2015, 11:20   #16
mushroom patch
Swordsman
 
Join Date: Oct 2014
Posts: 298
mushroom patch is an unknown quantity at this point
Quote:
Originally Posted by kandrc View Post
This is a ridiculous claim. In no-sell games, I'm managing inventory, and making equipment decisions on the cusp of encumbrance limits until usually about clvl 30/dlvl 90+. When I used to have to deal with selling, I'd only have one or two inventory slots for saleable objects. Said objects, if encumbering, were left on the dungeon floor while I adventured. 20 years ago, when I followed the "guides" (and didn't win), I'd have 10 or more slots devoted to revenue. I have to argue that if you're only facing encumbrance limits when selling, that you're not playing a strategy that maximizes winning/<variable> where <variable> is almost anything.
You do this because you incorrectly believe it will help you, not because you have to. You probably think a lot of unimportant resistances are actually important.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Carnivalblam
I'd add that no real sense of progression over 100 levels just makes the game feel like drudgery.
I usually assume that people who argue with me on these forums know something about the game, have won it before, etc., but I'm starting to wonder with this one.
mushroom patch is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 3, 2015, 14:52   #17
Mikko Lehtinen
Veteran
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Posts: 1,246
Mikko Lehtinen is on a distinguished road
I think a new player may intuitively assume that trying to evade mage armor encumbrance penalty is a good strategy, even in the late game. (Since the game keeps messaging about it.)

If the penalty is not a big deal in the late game, and you're better off ignoring it, perhaps the game should communicate this to the player more clearly?

A binary penalty might work well? Either you would have the (sizable) penalty to spellcasting or not. The lbs encumbrance limit could perhaps increase with levels.
Mikko Lehtinen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 3, 2015, 15:42   #18
kandrc
Swordsman
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 299
kandrc is on a distinguished road
Quote:
Originally Posted by mushroom patch View Post
You do this because you incorrectly believe it will help you, not because you have to. You probably think a lot of unimportant resistances are actually important.
You're silly. You assume I'm carrying swaps. I haven't carried a swap in 20 years. It's not at all uncommon for me to be down in the 90s and not yet have rbase. Inventory weight is filled up with wands, rods,, scrolls, and potions. If I'm playing a physically strong character, I may have some staves, too, but for the weaker race/class combos, they'reusually too heavy. Also only carry a single copy of each spellbook.
kandrc is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 3, 2015, 16:12   #19
mushroom patch
Swordsman
 
Join Date: Oct 2014
Posts: 298
mushroom patch is an unknown quantity at this point
I only assumed that what you said in your previous comment accurately describes your play.
mushroom patch is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 4, 2015, 10:32   #20
Philip
Knight
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Prague,Czech Republic
Posts: 902
Philip is on a distinguished road
mushroom patch, is there a specific reason you choose to be an asshole? I mean, you probably have some points to make, but I can't get to them through all the levels of condescension.

As for encumbrance/spellpoint loss from heavy armor, both of them certainly have a purpose. Encumbrance is there to make sure you need to make equipment and inventory decisions. It becomes less important once you have more than +10 permanent speed, and a lot of strength, though both of these could be changed. Make encumbrance take away a percentage of the energy you gain per turn (in effect, percentage reduction of speed), and/or reduce the effects of very high strength on carrying capacity. Spellpoint loss from heavy armor is there to restrict armor on mages. I think it should be STR/DEX based, and it should (again) be a percentage reduction, which would create higher allowances for heavy armor at the end in a way that maybe makes more sense, while probably not absolutely crippling early characters for wanting to wear that chain-mail of elvenkind or whatever.
Philip is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Level 31 Mage, which armor to use??? Freddo AAR 7 March 16, 2015 16:20
encumbering armor quarague Vanilla 5 July 15, 2012 18:21
Randart armor. Faerandir Vanilla 3 December 8, 2010 09:22
Test-Id for armor Donald Jonker Vanilla 3 May 20, 2009 11:00
YACD my first mage (but not getting the full mage experience) will_asher AAR 9 September 8, 2007 07:34


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 07:18.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, vBulletin Solutions Inc.