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Old December 6, 2007, 22:01   #1
roustk
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[V] YACD Half-Troll Mage with equipment conundrum

See the character dump for PoohBear at:
http://angband.oook.cz/ladder-show.php?id=7099

This is a Half-Troll mage that I've been slowly working on for months, and seems to be on the path to becoming a winner (my other winners have been Half-Troll Priests). I've just finished a lengthy dive from 3000' to 3200' (clearing all levels) and picked off a couple more uniques, the toughest this trip being the Mouth of Sauron. Picked up seven artifacts without encountering anything bigger than a simple diagonal vault and a green dragon pit.

With all the new options [Elessar, the Arkenstone, Caspanion, Thalkettoth, Paurhach, Rilia, Nar-i-vagil, and an amulet of Sustenance (sustain everything and hold life)], I'm having a hard time deciding what to use for my next push. I've emptied out the house to make equipment swapping easier.

The kit I'm leaning toward is:
* Orome, Amras, =Int+5, =Con+6, Elessar, Arkenstone,
* Thalkettoth, Holcolleth, Shield of Elvenkind (RDisenchant),
* Holhenneth, Cesti of Free Action, Boots of Stability

The best alternate seems to be using Rohirrim and Thranduil, which gets me ESP and RSound at the cost of 3 speed (+9 rather than +12) and RShards. Crossing that speed threshold (being +22 rather than +19) seems significant, however.

I've found no artifact shields or boots, no boots of speed, and no artifact gloves aside from Paur*, so there is little choice there. Several decent weapons and an embarassment of armours make things hard, though.

I'll also probably need to sell a handful of artifacts -- any suggestions?

Thanks,
Kevin
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Old December 7, 2007, 02:40   #2
aeneas
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Well- you really want to have rConf at that depth, particularly as a mage, so any arrangement without it is out. You can go without rSound, but it's a bit dicey. Also, it would be very nice to get those last 3 points of Con- they are the biggest, and you would have _huge_ hp for a mage with them. I really like having ESP too, but I think I may actually over value it a bit.

You're right that there is a big difference between +19 and +22, as they are both breakpoints. At +19 anything that is +20 can get a double move on you. At +22 nothing can. You actually only need one item to resolve all your difficulties- Thror would do it, and Thror tends to pop up a lot at the depth you're at. Still, I wouldn't wear Thalkettoth.

Are you primarily meleeing at this point? Caspanion looks good to me, as it gives you a lot of flex in your other slots- you can lose both the INT ring and Elessar if need be, I think.. I don't play a lot of mages, but I think that would still leave you at 0%for the critical stuff... right?

But I think you would lose a blow, though you could put the damage ring back in to compensate for that if Int 18/210 leaves you at 0%. That lets you swap in Thranduil without losing RConf, and gets your Con to 18/200. It's too bad you don't have another source of FA (Thingol would lose even more speed). The other option is Rohirrim and Thranduil, but I think I'd rather have the HP than the rSound, though you have to be very careful and know how to play without rSound for that to work. But having ESP makes that a lot easier.

As for artifacts to toss... well, Holhenneth comes very close to strictly dominating Thengel, so that can go (I don't think you can get a perfect save anyway, with a half-troll mage, and that is the only conceivable reason you would wear it). Paurhach can go. You could keep Aeglin around for rBlind but I strongly doubt you'll ever use it again. Sustenance will only be useful if you melee Morgy so... I'd likely pitch it, as there is so much else to put in that slot. You're low on rPoison, but... I'd probably lose Barahir if you need the space- you'll be picking up nice rings soon. Evenstar's usually a bit useless, but if you have the space you could hang onto it- the sustain of int might come in handy when you ditch the ring, though I think it is unlikely that you will use it. I doubt you'll wear Arvedui again, but if you've got the space you could keep it for shards and nexus. Neither resist is critical though. Hithlomir can go- rDark and the stealth are nice but you have too much good armor to wear that again, I think. Probably the star should go as well if you are pressed for space- the activation is nice, but probably not worth a slot at home. I also kind of doubt you'll be wielding Rilia again, but since you are low on rPoison you could keep it around till you need the space.

EDIT: Just to add one thing- no matter what you do you will still have some weakness, but just a bit more kit should fix you up. So if I were you I would drop to about 3750', mainly stopping to kill Elemental Wyrms, but avoiding confrontations with anything that can exploit your weakness. You should be able to _easily_ survive at any depth with this character as long as you don't try to take on everything head-on. If you choose to go with Caspanion you will definitely want to avoid things that can stun you- if you don't like to play that way then Rohirrim is a better choice. But if you do that you will still want to stay away from dangerous things that are +20 speed.

Last edited by aeneas; December 7, 2007 at 02:54.
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Old December 7, 2007, 18:11   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aeneas View Post
Well- you really want to have rConf at that depth, particularly as a mage, so any arrangement without it is out. You can go without rSound, but it's a bit dicey. Also, it would be very nice to get those last 3 points of Con- they are the biggest, and you would have _huge_ hp for a mage with them. I really like having ESP too, but I think I may actually over value it a bit.

Are you primarily meleeing at this point? Caspanion looks good to me, as it gives you a lot of flex in your other slots- you can lose both the INT ring and Elessar if need be, I think.. I don't play a lot of mages, but I think that would still leave you at 0%for the critical stuff... right?
I need 18/200 INT for 0% fail. There are several ways to get there, but I've been running at 1% fail without too much trouble. I should double-check the fail rate on Mana Storm -- that is the only worrisome failure, as I use scrolls (or potions) when in trouble.

At 18/180, 23% on Mana Storm, 6% on Chaos Strike, 1% on rest of Kelek's.
At 18/200, 20% on Mana Storm, 3% on Chaos Strike, 0% on rest of Kelek's.
At 18/220, 14% on Mana Storm, 0% on Chaos Strike, 0% on rest of Kelek's.

Re: blows.
Looking at Amras, Elessar, Caspanion, and Thranduil, I have max blows with a 5lb weapon (STR 18/110, DEX 18/80). Adding Barahir (+1 to all stats) brings that to 9lbs.

Quote:
(I don't think you can get a perfect save anyway, with a half-troll mage, and that is the only conceivable reason you would wear it).
Without racial bonuses or WIS, Mages reach 75% save at level 50.
Priests reach 92%, paladins 80%, rogues and rangers 78%, and warriors 68%.

18/80 WIS gives a bonus of 5%, and each point above there gives another percent, to a bonus of 19% at 18/220 WIS. So, a Mage with max WIS needs 6 racial bonus points. Mages of races except Humans, Half-Elves, Half-Orcs, Half-Trolls, Dunadan, and Kobolds can get perfect save. (On the other hand, a Half-Troll Priest with 18/190 WIS has perfect save.)


Caspanion does look like the right choice -- trading a 175 HP for 14 SP seems okay (Caspanion weighs 27lbs and mages have a limit of 30lbs before losing SP). Still a few interesting choices left:

Start with Amras, =Con+6, Elessar, Arkenstone, Caspanion, Holcolleth, Elvenkind shield (Disenchant), Thranduil, and Stability boots (Nexus).

Orome, =Dam+12, Free Action cesti give:
* Speed +9, 982 HP, 387 SP, 4 blows at 4d6+41, 0% fail (17% on Mana Storm).

Orome, Barahir, Free Action cesti give no particular benefit:
* Speed +9, 982 HP, 387 SP, 4 blows at 4d6+30, 0% fail (14% on Mana Storm).

Orome, Barahir, Dex+5 Cesti, and Thingol get me to theft-proof DEX, but little else:
* Speed +7, 982 HP, 387 SP, 4 blows at 4d6+30, 0% fail (20% Mana Storm, 3% Chaos).

Sting, =Int+5, Dex+5 Cesti gets me to theft-proof DEX:
* Speed +7, 982 HP, 387 SP, 6 blows at 1d6+25, 0% fail (14% on Mana Storm).

Sting slays animals, orcs, undead, and evil.
Orome slays animals, giants, and has fire brand.
So, Sting's key advantages are against U, fire D, and fire-resistant undead.
* U,D: Sting x2, Orome x1: roughly 12x1d6+150 per round, versus 4x4d6+164
* W (nightcrawler,nightwalker): 18x1d6+150 versus 4x4d6+164
* Other undead: 18x1d6+150 versus 12x4d6+164
* Other evil: 12x1d6+150 versus 12x4d6+164
Even at its best, Sting only matches Orome (and I'm ignoring the 2 point speed difference).


Bottom line, looks like Orome, =Dam+12, and Free Action cesti is best. Holes are Sound, Shards, Nether, Chaos, and no sustain on INT, WIS, DEX, or CHR.
* Sound: genocide Z and avoid Law, Balance, and Gold D.
* Chaos: I can't cover this in any case.
* Shards, Nether, WIS, CHR: few worries with 982 HP and CL 50 (and Hold Life).
* INT, DEX: can lose 10 points before any effect, then 1% fail and 3 blows. Losing more than 30 points of DEX puts me at 2 blows.

As for sale items, Rilia and Sting look like keepers (Disenchant and Free Action swaps). The other weapons (Aeglin and Nar-i-vagil) don't seem to have much value. Paurhach is clearly gone, and Thengel is beaten by Holhenneth. Thingol is a keeper for now, only because of its free action. Hithlomir doesn't seem to have much value, but the other armors seem plausible (including the robe of Permanence, with RNexus). I like all the amulets, but the Sustenance one is replacable. Evenstar replaces RLL potions and Carlammas provides protection from evil (not that I have ever used it, and glyphs probably would replace it). The ring of damage is disposable (I saw +13 and +14 on the last trip, but couldn't bring them back). I can sell off my library and just town-scum if needed, which could buy me another 4 or 8 slots, depending on how aggressive I want to be.

Many thanks Aeneas.

Kevin
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Old December 8, 2007, 08:19   #4
aeneas
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Quote:
Originally Posted by roustk View Post

Orome, =Dam+12, Free Action cesti give:
* Speed +9, 982 HP, 387 SP, 4 blows at 4d6+41, 0% fail (17% on Mana Storm).
I was thinking you wouldn't get 4 blows with this setup- since you do I think it is the best.

Quote:
Originally Posted by roustk View Post

As for sale items, Rilia and Sting look like keepers (Disenchant and Free Action swaps). The other weapons (Aeglin and Nar-i-vagil) don't seem to have much value. Paurhach is clearly gone, and Thengel is beaten by Holhenneth. Thingol is a keeper for now, only because of its free action. Hithlomir doesn't seem to have much value, but the other armors seem plausible (including the robe of Permanence, with RNexus). I like all the amulets, but the Sustenance one is replacable. Evenstar replaces RLL potions and Carlammas provides protection from evil (not that I have ever used it, and glyphs probably would replace it). The ring of damage is disposable (I saw +13 and +14 on the last trip, but couldn't bring them back). I can sell off my library and just town-scum if needed, which could buy me another 4 or 8 slots, depending on how aggressive I want to be.
Hmm- well, if you have the space, no harm in hanging onto stuff. But at clvl 50 the activation on Evenstar shouldn't be needed- I actually never carry RLL, though perhaps that is part of why I tend to hit 4000' at clvl ~35 a lot of the time . Nexus is not important to survival once your stats are maxed. Getting teleported off a level can be pretty annoying, but it's also pretty avoidable even without the resist once you are fast. Both Arvedui and the permanence are overkill, IMHO. And I can't imagine that you would use Rilia just for rDisen... Orome is just so much better. rPoison... well, it's unlikely but you might hang onto it for that.

I don't think you'll find Carlammas's activation all that useful at the depth/clvl you're at. OTOH the two points of Con could come in handy- I don't think you'll wear it again, but it is possible. Of course if you find the Necklace of the Dwarves you can safely pitch it.

Anyway, this character looks like a winner to me- just needs some more speed. Good luck .
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Old December 9, 2007, 02:34   #5
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Explored more today, diving from 3200' and planning on going deep.
However, a Sphere vault at 3350' changed those plans. The vault
did give me a chance to catch up on uniques (missing only Azog
through level 67), but I could barely carry the swag home.

Found gear includes:
* 5 Rings of Speed (+3, +5, +7, +8, +10) -- I left the 3 small ones
* Ingwe and Amulets of Weaponmastery and Trickery
* Isildur, Belegennon, Himring
* Thorongil
* Haradrim
* Gondor
* Balli Stonehand

I also abandonned about 400 highly enchanted and often branded
arrows that had been dropped. That's a shame, but it seems that
they are becoming common enough. It is amazing how fast you
can kill something with branded ammo with to-dam of 15-20.
(With Amras, appropriately branded Seeker Arrows with to-dam
of +15 gives 3x3x(4d4+30) = 360 twice per move. At +25 speed,
I was killing Wyrms in 2 game turns.)

I'll post a new dump once I sort through the new options.

Kevin
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Old December 9, 2007, 05:54   #6
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Updated dump at same place: http://angband.oook.cz/ladder-show.php?id=7099

This kit (Orome, Amras, =Speed+8, =Speed+10, Weaponmastery, Arkenstone, Caspanion, Holcolleth, Haradrim, Gondor, Free Action, and Agility+5) gives 907 HP, 380 SP, ludicrous speed +28 unhasted, and all resistances except shards and nether -- however, this has 1% fail, no ESP, and aggravation. Carry Elessar as a swap (for second healing activation, +5 to-hit, and speed +30) when losing RDisenchant is safe.

Looking at selling:
* amulets of sustenance and trickery (replacable)
* Evenstar, Belegennon, Thorongil (not too valuable)
* Elendil (have Arkenstone)
* Isildur (have Rohirrim)
* Belegennon (plenty RPoison)
* Rilia (elvenkind shield and weaponmastery give RDisen)

I will buy !CCW, ?Phase Door, and about 200 arrows to brand and enchant from the store before diving. This should be good enough gear to win, although I'd love to get back to 18/200 INT and CON.

I only see two decent alternatives to this kit:
Trade 6 speed for 75 HP and no aggravation:
* Orome, Amras, =CON+6, =Speed+10, Elessar, Arkenstone,
* Caspanion, Holcolleth, Elvenkind, Gondor, Free Action, Stability
** Base Speed +22, INT 18/190 (1% fail), CON 18/230 (982 HP)
** No RShard, No RNether, No ESP, 2 Heal activations

Trade 8 speed for 75 HP and 0% fail (with aggravation, Elessar swap):
* Orome, Amras, Barahir, =Speed+10, Weaponmastery, Arkenstone,
* Caspanion, Holcolleth, Haradrim, Gondor, Free Action, Stability
** Base Speed +20, INT 18/200 (0% fail), CON 18/200 (982 HP)
** No RShard, No RNether, No ESP, Aggravate, 1 Heal activation

I can get to 0% fail, 982 HP, and ESP with =CON+6 and Thranaduil,
but base speed is only +19 and have no RSound or RChaos.

Kevin
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Old January 8, 2008, 04:28   #7
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Finally had time to proceed with this character again. See dump at:
http://angband.oook.cz/ladder-show.php?id=7099

The last dive (8 levels from 3600' to 3950') was fairly straightforward.
- Four uniques killed: Khamul, Ungoliant, Witch-King, Cantoras.
- Eight artifacts found: Maedhros, Osondir, Lotharang, Deathwreaker, Umbar, Tulkas, Palantir, Celeborn.
- One powerful ego-item: Shield of Deflection of Preservation (Nether).

Cantoras was the only tricky unique, but that was driven more by my strategy than anything else. I'd found a pile of Seeker Arrows of Slay Undead (with about +20 to-dam), and wanted to make a point of using those rather than Rift/Manastorm to understand those tactics. Keeping an open field of fire required lots of Genocide, something I usually eschew. The power of archery is really impressive.

The Witch-King was absolutely trivial. He was summoned by Cantoras and I quickly teleported him away. When found later, he never summoned and only teleported me away a few times. The only attack he used was brain smashing, but I don't think I was ever slowed.

This trip I avoided problems with chain-summoning demons, but a flock of dragons ended the trip (by providing more artifacts than I could carry). A Greater Dragon Q survived long enough to summon Great Wyrms of Many Colors, Balance, and Law, and things went
downhill from there. I was already low on branded arrows (3 Undead, 6 Dragon, 15 Venom), so things didn't look good. I picked off the Dracoli(sk|ch) and non-summoning Wyrms with the arrows and then swapped to Umbar and a stack of Bolts of Wounding (about +25). Through much pain I took out the summoning Wyrms and most of their summons, finally genociding the last dozen once all of the bolts and arrows had been broken and I was down to 50 mana.

Next trip I'll be using this (not very mage-like) kit:
* Deathwreaker, Amras, Tulkas, =Speed+11, Trickery+4, Palantir
* Caspanion, Holcolleth, Shield of Deflection of Preservation, Numenor, Fingolfin, Thror

This is fairly promising, with 982 HP, 377 SP, 178 AC, Imm Fire, and all resists covered. My playstyle is to clear levels, so Aggravation isn't annoying, although the lack of Healing activations is worrisome. I would like to get back to using Belthronding or Umbar (although Amras is only slightly less powerful) and be able to use at least one of Elessar and Gondor, but I can't seem to avoid opening up a nasty hole.

Comments?

Kevin
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Old January 11, 2008, 01:36   #8
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Winner! Dump at http://angband.oook.cz/ladder-show.php?id=7099

Finished with a long dive from 4500' to 5000'. Iound Draugluin and Kronos very quickly when I recalled to 4500' and Huan showed up at 4750', leaving only Sauron and Morgoth.

Found seven artifacts on the final levels, although most were left behind:
* Cambeleg in a Black Dragon pit on 4500'
* Gondricam from a Nightwalker on 4500'
* Colluin and Nain in a Demon pit on 4650'
* Cammithrim from a Greater Titan on 4650'
* Turmil from a Horned Reaper on 4900'
* Cubragol from a Demon pit on 4900'
* Arunruth from Sauron on 4950'

I also found stacks of Seeker Bolts of Slay Evil (+18,+24) and (+12,+18), two stacks of plain bolts of Slay Evil (+14 and +9 to-dam), and two Rods of Healing on the way.

I had been planning on going to 4900' collecting bolts before recalling home to swap from Bard to Umbar for the final two battles. However, finding Cubragol changed that -- I would have to fire at half the power of Umbar, but I would be at +29 base speed (and when hasted/brain smashed) and able to avoid almost all Morgoth double-moves. Since I had no compelling swaps at home, even with my new finds, I went to 4950' and then 5000' without recalling.

Sauron took 3 Restore Mana, 1 Healing, 1 Rod of Heal, and Soulkeeper. Only difficulty was hunting him down and getting the last 3 stars -- he kept on teleporting. Basic strategy -- find Sauron in a long corridor, fire plain Bolts of Slay Evil (+14 to-dam) until summons, then Mana Storm until he teleports.

Morgoth was a bit more difficult, probably because I was not aggressive enough with Genocide -- I kept on getting hit by multiple breaths or other attacks. Basic strategy -- find a corner room, put a single line of glyphs across the center of the room and stand with my back to the wall (about 4 spaces behind the glyphs), shoot the Seeker Bolts at Morgy until summons get in the way, then Mana Storm until he reaches the line of glyphs. Teleport him away, Mass Banishment, and repeat. When he was at about 2 stars, one of the summons used a tele-to which put me adjacent to Morgoth -- the subsequent earthquake mucked things up. From then, I used bolts and mana storm until Morgy was adjacent, and then Rift to move him away.

In the end, I used 7 Restore Mana, 14 Healing, 4 *Healing*, 1 Life (to restore Dex and Exp after some undead melee), 2 Rods of Healing, and Soulkeeper.

In addition to the equipment shown, I also had a huge library of books (about 5 of each town book and 30 of each dungeon book except Kelek's), more than 20 of each Healing potion, and 55 potions of Restore Mana in a far corner of the 5000' dungeon. Morgoth dropped nothing useful except Grond and the Crown, and none of the summons' drops survived the mana storms and earthquakes.

Kevin
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Old January 15, 2008, 19:06   #9
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Winner! Dump at
In the end, I used 7 Restore Mana, 14 Healing, 4 *Healing*, 1 Life (to restore Dex and Exp after some undead melee), 2 Rods of Healing, and Soulkeeper.
That's a godawful lot of potions- but, if you've got them quaff them . Now that you've killed Morgy 3 (?) times, it's worth noting that you can kill him with less, if you are looking for a faster win. That said, I don't play mages much- I've won a couple times with them, but that was long ago... I don't recall the specifics, so it may be harder to stay healthy. This is your first mage win right?

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In addition to the equipment shown, I also had a huge library of books (about 5 of each town book and 30 of each dungeon book except Kelek's)
You don't need this unless you are collecting them for collecting's sake, which would make you... hmm.. an Angband spellbook Otaku. In V the dungeon books are safe once your Dex is over 18/150. BTW- nice massive hp for a mage.. I might have to try this combo sometime. Regen plus HP might be worth stupidity .

Congrats on the win. I think at number 3 you have passed the point of flukiness- you should win regularly now. Your others were Priests right? If you're looking for a challenge, try a warrior next . They are super powerful in the beginning, but at the end... the inventory trouble gets severe. You seem to play high HP chars though, so it might be a nice fit for you. Anyway, congrats, again.
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Old January 16, 2008, 00:53   #10
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That's a godawful lot of potions- but, if you've got them quaff them . Now that you've killed Morgy 3 (?) times, it's worth noting that you can kill him with less, if you are looking for a faster win. That said, I don't play mages much- I've won a couple times with them, but that was long ago... I don't recall the specifics, so it may be harder to stay healthy. This is your first mage win right?
I certainly didn't fight it ideally, but I wasn't short on potions (an advantage of an incredibly slow game). I could have saved on Restore Mana by relying on my regeneration more (teleporting or tele away). Similarly with healing -- I could have teleported at 600HP rather than quaffing.

My cycle was fairly close to: stand and wait for Morgy to enter LOS, bolts until LOS blocked, mana storm until (1) HP below 600 (heal or bigger), (2) SP below 30 (mana), (3) Morgy reaches HTH (tele away with rod and mass genocide), then stand and wait.

Quote:
Congrats on the win. I think at number 3 you have passed the point of flukiness- you should win regularly now. Your others were Priests right? If you're looking for a challenge, try a warrior next .
Yep -- other wins have been Half-Troll Priests, in much older versions. I've been looking at warriors, and based on my last couple trips with this character it seems that I wouldn't be in too bad shape for it. (From the time I wielded Deathwreaker until I faced Morgy, I barely touched the spellbooks at all. Hmm -- phase door, detect traps, detect invisible, detect monsters, disarm traps, satisfy hunger, identify, haste self, resistance, create stairs, word of recall, brand ammo, and genocide a couple of times. Most of this I could have done without -- there were plenty of branded plain arrows and the rest was simply for convenience. Losing double resists and Balrog-proof teleport could be annoying, but an extra couple hundred HP would make up for it.)

An annoyance that leaps out at me for warriors is charge draining. That is why I didn't bother carrying staffs after about 3000' (and especially once I reached zero-fail) -- just couldn't keep them charged because I meleed too often. My one staff of the Magi (found at about 4800') blew up before I reached Sauron, after the second pile of demons and before I even used it.

Kevin
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