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Old January 25, 2010, 20:03   #21
fizzix
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Originally Posted by Magnate View Post
It has long been my ambition to make more coherent randarts, and Pete's suggestion of an association between +stat and sus_stat is exactly the kind of thing I have in mind.

That said, randarts will never be an identical experience to playing with the standard set, and I don't aspire to that. The, er, nature of randomness means that your endgame kit is likely to be less perfectly complementary than the carefully designed standard artifacts. I am fine with this: people say that randarts make the game too easy because there are sick launchers or easier coverage of immunities or whatever - this is the other side of the coin.
It's a crapshoot. I've had randart games that felt a lot easier than a standart game. I've also had some that were very hard because there was no perfectly adequate kit and I had to live without certain resists/immunities. Some games harder, some games easier, sounds perfect to me.
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Old January 25, 2010, 20:39   #22
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I am a big fan of randomness, but the problem I have with the changes is that they are biased towards missiles. Even a single extra shot on a non-bowslot item is unbalancing, and things which make sustains harder to cover just make you plan on shooting instead of bashing.
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Old January 25, 2010, 22:44   #23
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Originally Posted by PowerDiver View Post
I am a big fan of randomness, but the problem I have with the changes is that they are biased towards missiles. Even a single extra shot on a non-bowslot item is unbalancing, and things which make sustains harder to cover just make you plan on shooting instead of bashing.
This is an interesting and probably valid point, but it's one of those things I'm reluctant to invest time in until missile damage has been properly nerfed. I mean rebalanced.
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Old January 25, 2010, 23:10   #24
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This is an interesting and probably valid point, but it's one of those things I'm reluctant to invest time in until missile damage has been properly nerfed. I mean rebalanced.
Well, for now, could you count +1 blow as about +15 melee damage and +1 shot as about +75 melee damage [as in the to_dam value on any wielded item] in your power calculations? The +1 shot should probably be closer to +100, but I bet you were already shocked by +75.

You can reduce the power ratings later when missiles are nerfed.
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Old January 25, 2010, 23:14   #25
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It's pretty easy to think of shots in terms of melee. Extra Might becomes Extra Blows, and Extra Shots becomes +(current blows) Extra Blows. If you assume that the average character has an x3 launcher multiplier, then each extra shot is equivalent to 3 extra blows. Of course, it's slightly less in practice due to Extra Shots requiring you to expend more ammo compared to Extra Might, but I don't think that's particularly significant.
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Old January 26, 2010, 02:34   #26
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Power calcs should be about endgame chars, so the value of +1 shots should be the value of a char with Bard or Umbar and acid ammo getting another shot.

If I was playing with standard artifacts and found Ringil at DL 50, and was given the option to trade it for a cloak with +1 shots and nothing else, I would make the trade in a heartbeat unless I was playing a ranger.
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Old January 26, 2010, 03:43   #27
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Originally Posted by PowerDiver View Post
Well, for now, could you count +1 blow as about +15 melee damage and +1 shot as about +75 melee damage [as in the to_dam value on any wielded item] in your power calculations? The +1 shot should probably be closer to +100, but I bet you were already shocked by +75.

You can reduce the power ratings later when missiles are nerfed.
I wouldn't mind removing +shots or +might on any non-launcher as a possibility. Maybe, one item can have +1 shots and one can have +1 might in a game, but that's it.
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Old January 26, 2010, 05:10   #28
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I just finished a randart game where the palintir gave +3 shots. This was way too powerful. With a +2 sling of buckland, I had six shots per round. Sauron barely moved as I lined him up in a corridor and shot him down with acid shots. Morgy was a somewhat more difficult, but it was still seemed a bit unfair, as I was getting 4-6 shots with slay evil ammo and (4x and 5x) launchers. Until missle damage is nerfed, I wouldn't give more than +1 shots on any non-launcher slot.
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Old January 26, 2010, 18:15   #29
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I just finished a randart game where the palintir gave +3 shots. This was way too powerful. With a +2 sling of buckland, I had six shots per round. Sauron barely moved as I lined him up in a corridor and shot him down with acid shots. Morgy was a somewhat more difficult, but it was still seemed a bit unfair, as I was getting 4-6 shots with slay evil ammo and (4x and 5x) launchers. Until missle damage is nerfed, I wouldn't give more than +1 shots on any non-launcher slot.
I think I agree with that, although I am rather pleased that the randart generator produced a palantir with +3 shots! Presumably it didn't have (m)any other qualities (a "supercharge", in randart terminology). But yes, it does sound rather unbalancing in the current environment.

Still, now that 3.1.2 is out I'm going to try and get Takk and the other devs to come to some kind of consensus around what the big objectives are for 3.1.3. If missile rebalancing is not happening in 3.1.3 then I definitely need to fix this randart issue. If it is happening, I need to review randarts after it's done.

@Eddie: great minds think alike. The current code has 16 power per extra off-weapon blow, and 50 per shot. Admittedly not as high as your 75, but no I wasn't shocked.

Now I come to think of it, the Palantir doesn't have anywhere near 150 power, so +3 shots should have been impossible. Shinedog: I don't suppose you have the randart.log file from that game??

EDIT: dammit, I'm a factor of two out. I'd forgotten that since power pricing power is measured in half points of damage, so Eddie's recommendations are that an offweapon blow is worth 30 power and an offweapon shot 150. So my 16 and 50 now look significantly different (and it explains why the palantir could get +3 shots). Yes, I'm inclined to agree with Eddie and double or triple the power for these until missile damage is sorted.
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Old January 26, 2010, 19:11   #30
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@Eddie: great minds think alike. The current code has 16 power per extra off-weapon blow, and 50 per shot. Admittedly not as high as your 75, but no I wasn't shocked.
Well, let me shock you now. That 75 was using my most conservative estimate, *BEFORE* applying a correction factor. The fact that missiles allow you to fight disenchanters and charge and stat drainers without worry holding _heal and -telOther in your pack means that I believe missile damage should count 3 times as much as melee damage for comparison purposes. So up that 75 to 225, and I maintain that is a "conservative" estimate.

And that's before the doubling. I think that means I think the extra shot on an off slot is worth about 10 times what you had it set at. I don't expect you to agree with my evaluation, but I'm not exaggerating for effect. I really think it is that powerful.

My current warrior switched from melee to missiles when I found a haradrim xbow with +23 damage. That's an x4 launcher with +1 shot, and the class with the best possible melee uses it instead of melee for important fights. Imagine how much more unbalancing it is for a weak melee char with an x5 launcher who depends upon carrying staves.
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