Revamping the monster list

[luneya]

Originally Posted by Philip

I think it would be nice if finding objects on the ground were more important. On the other hand, with fuzzy detection, that would be much more irritating.

What are you talking about? A lot of the good loot is found on the ground--most often in vaults or special rooms, but sometimes on the common dungeon floor. Monster drops are only really important for midgame uniques, before vaults start to dominate the landscape. Okay, in the lategame vaults, the big monsters drop some of the good stuff, but they're mainly there to kill you rather than as a loot source. That's why TO vault-clearing is a useful strategy even though it doesn't kill anything.

[Nick]

OK, I've been promising to say something concrete here for a while; this will be vague, but hopefully indicative. I'll just list some ideas I currently have; it's not exhaustive, and some of them may not make it in the end:

• Looking at Thraalbee's page shows that there are many new monsters up to DL45, and few after that. A lot of the early monsters need to be either toughened and moved deeper, or replaced with deeper versions.
• There are a number of monsters I am considering including from FA; for example:
  • Crows of Udun
  • various archers
  • Abyss spiders
  • Nrulings
  • Serpents of the Brownlands
  • Giant black scorpions
  • Beastmasters
  • Skeleton serpents
  • Dark nagas
  • Serpents of Chaos
  • Giant paladins
  • Children of Ungoliant
  • Wolves of Sauron
  • Sky dragons
  • Hounds of Tindalos
• Many of these include the LASH spell (which is like a 2-3 grid ranged attack based on the monster's first melee blow), so I want to add that too
• Monsters that need toughening/tougher version include snakes, spiders, nagas, lesser undead, minor demons, felines, birds.
• Monsters that I'm basically OK with currently are hydras, elementals, vortices, hounds, yeeks, kobolds, quylthulgs.
• Orcs, trolls, giants, dragons, major demons and greater undead are mostly pretty good, but could probably do with a little toughening and deepening.
• As mentioned elsewhere, I think the Greek uniques could be replaced with more thematic things - that's probably mostly just a name change.
• Remember that I am currently working on improving monster pathfinding, which will have implications for the list.
• Remember also that I want to make shallow monsters less likely at deeper depths; there are a number of possible ways to achieve this.

[Ingwe Ingweron]

And, Nick, how about the possibility of "neutral" monsters, a la FA?

[Antoine]

Originally Posted by Nick

OK, I've been promising to say something concrete here for a while; this will be vague, but hopefully indicative. I'll just list some ideas I currently have; it's not exhaustive, and some of them may not make it in the end:

I'd be sorry to lose some of the other stuff from upstream on this thread, like frogs jumping...

A.

[Philip]

Originally Posted by luneya

What are you talking about? A lot of the good loot is found on the ground--most often in vaults or special rooms, but sometimes on the common dungeon floor. Monster drops are only really important for midgame uniques, before vaults start to dominate the landscape. Okay, in the lategame vaults, the big monsters drop some of the good stuff, but they're mainly there to kill you rather than as a loot source. That's why TO vault-clearing is a useful strategy even though it doesn't kill anything.

Huh, looks like you're right. I've been blaming the wrongs things for the phenomenon that V characters have absolutely ridiculous access to stuff. Even so, I feel like hunting down shallow monsters should not be a viable strategy deep in the dungeon, and currently it rather is. For one thing, the most effective form of statgain is murdering orcs at dlvl 70. That feels wrong.

[Nick]

Originally Posted by Ingwe Ingweron

And, Nick, how about the possibility of "neutral" monsters, a la FA?

Probably not at this point, although it's something to think about. In FA they only appeared outside dungeons (IIRC), were based on player races, and were designed to appear closer to that race's home town; there isn't quite the same rationale for having them in V.

Originally Posted by Antoine

I'd be sorry to lose some of the other stuff from upstream on this thread, like frogs jumping...

Yes, I'll certainly look back at this thread.

[AmyBSOD]

Hmm, I'm wondering if this idea came up ever before, but: how about having monsters with native depths of 100 or higher (in addition to the existing monsters, of course)? They would serve to make deep vaults more interesting, especially when comparing them to slightly more shallow ones. E.g. a "monster up to 40 levels out of depth" tile on a DL80 vault could spawn a monster from a depth of up to 120; currently, those tiles will pick monsters from the exact same lists once the player reaches DL60, since no monsters with depths >= 100 exist. And it would also make the postgame more interesting when the player decides to venture down all the way to DL127.

[fizzix]

Originally Posted by AmyBSOD

Hmm, I'm wondering if this idea came up ever before, but: how about having monsters with native depths of 100 or higher (in addition to the existing monsters, of course)? They would serve to make deep vaults more interesting, especially when comparing them to slightly more shallow ones. E.g. a "monster up to 40 levels out of depth" tile on a DL80 vault could spawn a monster from a depth of up to 120; currently, those tiles will pick monsters from the exact same lists once the player reaches DL60, since no monsters with depths >= 100 exist. And it would also make the postgame more interesting when the player decides to venture down all the way to DL127.

Some variants have done this. One of the problems is that the monster we have at about 70-80 level are pretty much at the maximum stat-wise that we should expect from non-unique monsters. You could make some unique-statted monsters that are more deep but in reality, those monsters aren't any more dangerous than the non-unique monsters. They just tend to have more HP and require more resources to kill. The difference between Ancalagon and a Great Wyrm of Many Colors is that Ancalagon has more HP, that's pretty much it. Lungorthin isn't that much more dangerous than a greater balrog.

[Derakon]

Solution: add a Tarrasqueling to DL127. 500 HP, +20 speed, fire/cold/disenchantment breath, breeds explosively.

[Pete Mack]

@Derakon--
That'd do it, for every player except a mage with Kelek.
I still want to see Azriel brought back (possibly as Mandos.) Beruthiel, as a friend of the cat lord, would be good too.

Melkior Lord of the Underworld
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