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Old October 24, 2019, 22:34   #1
sanedragon
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One stat to rule them all

Speed. It feels like as a global rate of all actions, speed is everything. It controls how much damage @ deals, how much damage @ receives, whether escaping is possible. It seems like my characters' success has a lot to do with whether they find an early speed boost item.

Attack speed and shot speed have been around for a while, and the addition of fast casting and movement speed boosts seem to be pushing in the direction of separating into different rates of action for different actions. Could these be alternatives to a global action speed?
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Old October 24, 2019, 23:48   #2
Derakon
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I believe that's pretty explicitly the intent, yes. Speed has been the ne plus ultra stat since at the very least the first versions of Angband, when the best artifacts (e.g. Ringil, Cubragol, Feanor) were the best in no small part because they gave speed bonuses. The addition of diminishing returns on speed reduced the gap between speed and other stats but did not close it.

I can't remember Moria well enough to say if speed was a top-tier stat in it. I don't think Moria had permanent speed sources except maybe from Boots of Speed, though, and if so those capped at +1 (which is equivalent to +10 these days).
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Old October 25, 2019, 00:24   #3
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Speed and CON. A 250 HP mage with speed 15 (hasted) still has plenty of risks until he gets more HP and/or ESP.
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Old October 25, 2019, 00:44   #4
DavidMedley
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The "Pair of Leather Boots of Wormtongue" grant "MOVES[1]." When I had them, it looked like movement cost 50 energy instead of 100. Is that right?
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Old October 25, 2019, 01:16   #5
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OK, such a short thread, so much to think about.

Yes, it does look like we're heading in the direction of splitting up the speed stat. No, that wasn't explicitly the intent, or even consciously. Both fastcasting and movement speed came about as local features - fastcasting to give mages a buff to their casting, and movement speed originally to support druids' eagle form. So thanks for putting that together, I'm not sure how long it would have taken me to realise.

Yes, MOVES[1] halves movement energy; more generally MOVES[n] divides movement energy by n+1.

It's worth noting I think that "attack speed" is different from the others - extra blows is a better name for it, because it doesn't reduce energy use per turn, it adds blows.

So the obvious questions are:
  1. Do we keep splitting the speed stat, and presumably reduce the number of items with + to overall speed?
  2. Should attack speed be changed to be like the others?
  3. If yes to 1, what other individual action speeds would we add and what classes or objects should they be given to?

This really opens up the game's design space, or a can of worms, or both.
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Old October 27, 2019, 04:58   #6
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Originally Posted by Nick View Post
OK, such a short thread, so much to think about.

So the obvious questions are:
  1. Do we keep splitting the speed stat, and presumably reduce the number of items with + to overall speed?
  2. Should attack speed be changed to be like the others?
  3. If yes to 1, what other individual action speeds would we add and what classes or objects should they be given to?
Well, consumables are a big part of Angband, so it makes sense to me that we'd have a speed that dictates how quickly you can drink potions, zap rods/staves and read scrolls. Could even split this up into two: drink/read, and zap. Seems to me that gloves and rings would mostly affect this speed.

You could even give fighters a buff to their consumables speed at a certain level (like 40), much like how they get protection from fear right now.

I don't think there's necessarily a reason why we couldn't have both attack speed and blows per round. However, blows per round could be smaller and rarer (i.e. fighters get the ability to have a natural 2 blows per round, but everyone else needs a weapon of extra attacks). That way, instead of fighters having six *press the button*, fighters only have three, and those three each attack twice.

You could have an early-game consumable "Potions of Gump" or something that gives you a temporary movement boost, like TOME4's Movement Infusion. Could be a useful way for fighters and paladins to close on an enemy, or rangers to keep their distance when phase door is risky. Also good for escaping before TO.

Something that could also be interesting is if you had spells or consumables that let you reduce one speed to increase another. Maybe one of the hybrid casters has an early game spell that lets them increase their attack speed at the cost of their spell casting speed. Maybe one of the full casters has a spell that lets them increase their device speed at the cost of casting speed.

Most (early to mid) speed enhancing equipment could also buff one speed type but reduce another. Awesome endgame stuff could buff one or more speeds without reducing others, but those would be Awesome endgame stuff. In most of Angband you're making tradeoffs, and I'd like to see that be a thing with speed as well.

However, I don't think speed modifiers should be any rarer or less effective than they are now. Indeed, they might actually need to become more common if we balkanize speed. In my experiences in TOME4, speed is mostly not a thing because speed-enhancing equipment is so rare and inconsequential. Being able to attack an extra time every ten rounds really isn't a big deal.
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Old October 28, 2019, 19:53   #7
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game complexitiy

I do not like increasing game complexitiy. Neither do i like dividing global game speed into different speeds, which are action dependant.

What is that good for?

New players should sit down, create a character and start playing ... keep things easy.
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Old October 28, 2019, 20:44   #8
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What is that good for?
There's many many answers to this, but one is that moving fast and attacking fast are not the same thing. A raven or bat, for instance, might move 5x as fast as "normal" but why should that mean that they attack 5x as fast?
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Old November 2, 2019, 17:55   #9
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Originally Posted by Tibarius View Post
I do not like increasing game complexitiy. Neither do i like dividing global game speed into different speeds, which are action dependant.

What is that good for?
It's good for the same thing having a ton of different damage types and resistances is good for. It makes equipment trade-offs richer, and ensures that one stat is not All Powerful. A lot of the interesting equipment trade-offs you have to think about in Angband revolve around which resistances you want, and which you're willing to sacrifice. Imagine how much more boring the equipment game would be if you had only one resistance stat that resisted all elemental damage.

Instead of asking: "Is losing shard resistance worth an extra couple of points of strength?"

You'd be asking "Is losing ALL resistance to EVERY elemental type worth an extra couple of points of strength?"

The first one is worth thinking about. The second, not so much.

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New players should sit down, create a character and start playing ... keep things easy.
Splitting up the the speed stat doesn't change this. Speed isn't really a thing you have to worry about for at least the first 10, maybe even 20 dungeon levels, and it's not like it factors into character creation or anything.

It does make the character status screen more intimidating I'll grant you that. And Angband's character status *is* pretty intimidating already when you first see it. But I'm not sure having thirty-five rows instead of thirty is going to make it any more intimidating to new players.
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Old October 29, 2019, 01:19   #10
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Would just like to cast a vote for having movement speed, shooting speed, attack speed and casting speed all as distinct things and heck, maybe no 'total speed' at all.
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