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Old March 4, 2010, 23:55   #1
Speusippus
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Has anyone proposed changing the way # of blows is handled?

It seems to me that the way things are presently, the lightest weapons are generally the best weapons. This is because the bonus to dam that generally exists on weapons once you've gotten a little deeper into the game tends to drown out the effect of the weapon's inherent damage, meaning that a dagger with a plus 10 to dam will be a lot better to use than a broad sword (or whatever) with a plus ten to dam. That plus ten gets multiplied because of multiple blows far more times with the dagger than with the broad sword.

So given the choice between a light weapon and a heavy weapon, typically the light weapon is going to be favored.

This seems wrong to me. But are there others who agree? If so what alternatives have been proposed?
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Old March 5, 2010, 00:04   #2
nobody
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there's been an amazing amount of discussion on this issue, i'm not sure what takk has planned, there are many variants which used O style combat, cause OAngband was the first to use it, and O is completely different and heavier weapons are better, i think cause they crit more or something. someone will reply in more depth shortly, i'm sure
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Old March 5, 2010, 01:09   #3
Malak Darkhunter
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As it stands now, it seems that lighter weapons get more #blows, and heavier weapons take more strength, dex, to get more blows, and the difference modifier is the damage output of the weapon. Realisticaly in most cases it seems that lighter weapons with more # blows can cause more damage overall, or at least be equall somewhat to the heavier weapon. The difference is that you have more chances to land a hit, with a lighter weapon and more # of blows. Hate to say it but the lighter weapon wins in my book. You can pick up a truly damaging Executioners sword (4d5) and only get 4 blows, or you can wield a rapier and get 6 blows (1d6). Mathematically-
(4d5)=20x4=80 or (1d6)x6=36. So you *Could* do more damage with a heavier weapon *If* all blows connect. But that damage output is small compared to fighting something like a great storm wyrm.


I screwed up my own mathematics, had to redo that a little bit
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Old March 5, 2010, 01:19   #4
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The other problem with a single blow that consumes an entire turn is that if it misses, there is no marginal benefit. However, all else being equal, landing 50% of blows with a light weapon is still better than landing 0% of blows with a heavier weapon on any given turn. While over the course of several battles the law of averages will play out in terms of total damage dealt - angband combat is a game of decisive blows, not statistical attrition.

I believe there have been serious noises made recently about implementing a "fractional blows" system - which to my understanding would create more opportunity for variability in the number of blows/round, while still likely favoring lighter weapons overall (unless damage and to-hit are changed along with it)

Personally, I am in the camp that believes a modified system based on O combat would be welcome - but since my coding skills are slightly weaker than those of a clever parrot, I don't expect my opinion to carry much weight
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Old March 5, 2010, 01:19   #5
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also i think the bonuses to damage are what really put the light weapons over in terms of damage. in previous case if the weapons were +10 then the rapier would do another 60 damage vs another 40 if all hits connected
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Old March 5, 2010, 01:23   #6
Malak Darkhunter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nobody View Post
also i think the bonuses to damage are what really put the light weapons over in terms of damage. in previous case if the weapons were +10 then the rapier would do another 60 damage vs another 40 if all hits connected
That's a really good point there.
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Old March 5, 2010, 03:10   #7
Netbrian
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Maybe to-damage bonuses (and heck, AC bonuses) should be multiplicative, rather than additive. So you might be able to get, say, a bonus that multiplies your damage by 2 or so. That would be much better on heavier weapons with larger damage die, but you might not get as many blows with them.
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Old March 5, 2010, 03:50   #8
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That's how Oangband works: +damage is instead "deadliness" and acts as a multiplier. The annoying thing about it is that it's pretty opaque. Angband's system has the advantage of being very simple.

What I would support would be capping +to-damage at the damage dice (or at half the damage dice, or whatever). So a 1d4 dagger could only be enchanted up to +4, while an executioner's sword could be enchanted up to +20. You'd probably have to combine it with broadening the range of damage dice -- push the Blade of Chaos up to 6d8, make the mainline "heavy" weapons (lead-filled mace, pike, halberd, etc.) in the 4d4-4d6 range, and leave daggers et al moping down around 1d4. And that in turn might require tweaking monster hitpoints. But I think it would work.
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Old March 5, 2010, 04:59   #9
Nick
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Derakon View Post
That's how Oangband works: +damage is instead "deadliness" and acts as a multiplier. The annoying thing about it is that it's pretty opaque.
Would this:
Code:
a Dagger (1d4) (+3, +20%)
be better?
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Old March 5, 2010, 05:25   #10
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@Nick: No.

Follow the "it does Y damage vs fire-vulnerable monsters and X damage vs normal monsters" from 3.1.x, and you will have a useful description.
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